Helping someone of higher rank/experience

[Zepp]

Just curious: Have any of you ever given advice, constructive criticism, or a helpful observation to someone of higher rank or more experience than yourself? If so how did they take it? Does anyone think it's entirely inappropriate, and maybe even pretentious for someone to give help to a higher ranking classmate? How would you feel if someone of less rank and expereince than you attempted to help you with an observation about the way you do soemthing?

I'm only a mere 1st dan in my class, so I don't usually give "advice" to my fellow 1st dans or to the few 2nd dans, but once in a while, if I think it will help them, I'll point out an observation of mine. One example of this was a few classes ago when I was sparring one of the 2nd dans whom our instructor is hoping to have test soon. He's a lot taller than me, so he's got a pretty good reach advantage on me, and he doesn't have to worry so much about guarding his head until I get close up to him. But when I did get close (with no small effort on my part- he made me work for it), I was repeatedly able to get in some shots to his head that went mostly unanswered. I have a pretty good rapport with this guy (and with most people in our class), so after our sparring session was over I mentioned to him that I thought he wasn't raising his guard up when I came in. He thought about it for a second, and then said I might be right, and he thanked me. But later on I thought about our differences in rank and I wondered if some people might have thought that I was out of line.

How do some of you higher ranking folk feel when a young upstart like me disagrees with you on something martial arts related on an internet forum?

 

[Mark Weiser]

Yes I have.

Once to a 4th Degree Black training someone on Fall Techs. I mentioned he should teach the young man to slap the mat after he is thrown on a fall. I was very nice about it and said Sir to the Instructor and made it into a question. "Sir are we supposed to slap the mat after being throw?"

I have given little points to refine a few things from time to time if I know something is not being taught that is neccessary for proper techs.

 

[Lisa]

Okay, I voted for sure I have eyes and a mind of my own but...

I think a lot of what I would say would depend on the people I trained with. If the school encourages that sort of thing then go for it. If there is a set hierarchy then you probably would be best to keep things to yourself. It sounds from your post that your sparring partner appreciated your comment, however, not everyone will. The school I train in is very much an open atmosphere. Everyone helps everyone else, after all the instructor can't be everywhere at once and different people pick up on different things. Where I might be good at defending a technique, my sparring partner might not remember how to counter this. By my pointing it out to him, and him using what I have taught him, it forces me to use other counters and makes me better at defence. It also furthers both our learning experiences.

 

[Han-Mi]

we all have something to learn from everyone else we come in contact with. We aren't perfect and it sometimes takes an unbiased or unattached observer to help us improve or get passed something. I remind my instructor of things all the time, he can't remember absolutely everything right off the top of his head. Just as long as you are tactful about it and don't assum anything in sparring. I have been working with lower belts before and they would point out something I should have done(if I wanted to hit them) and so the next time I did it and they got hit. It isn't that I didn't know to do it the first time, it was that I was working them out, after this I usually explain to them why they got hit and that they should not assume that a higher rank did not take an opportunity because he/she did not see it.

I'm babbling now but, you get the point.

 

[TigerWoman]

I have only two others that are equal in rank-2nd, both men. One doesn't ask me and doesn't want advice in front of others. The other is also a second dan in another Karate discipline and occasionally asks me. I don't analyze either's technique because I don't feel it is my place to offer advice not solicited. As for lower ranks giving me advice, it is uncommon. The rule in our school is that you have to be a instructor, a black belt to teach. No one is allowed to argue, disagree with an instructor/BB on the floor. If a green, blue belt whatever wants to discuss my own form, he/she should do it in private. If we are supposed to be doing a particular technique/kick and he is offering me criticisms on how to do something, I would be not be able to get into a "discussion" about why he is right or I am right during the workout. If he says, you are not jumping high enough, I think I would just smile and keep on. That is the master's perogative to teach and correct. Actually that student should be working on his own form/technique and not worrying about others. We do have same belts or higher belts go over forms together and teach each other. But their diagreements are settled by a black belt or the master. Any student can help another student but within his realm of training and understanding. But if we are supposed to be working out continuously kicking, it is not accepted to interrupt someone with "your criticism or help" especially when the master or instructor of the class is looking on. TW

 

[kenpo tiger]

I didn't vote, primarily because there isn't an answer which fits how I feel about this question. My school also is an open and friendly atmosphere, and we all help each other. If I have any disagreement with someone of higher rank, I will ask why they are doing the tech/form/set the way they are. We've all realized that our instructor teaches us the same things the same ways initially, but either he or each student has adapted things to suit his (the student's) body mechanics on occasion. There is always open discussion - never dictatorial rhetoric among us - and we will usually either come to a meeting of the minds ourselves or, if we can't, will consult our head instructor. I have equivalent or more ma experience than most of the people who outrank me in my school, BUT (not shouting, just emphasizing a point) I have less kenpo experience than they do, and it can only benefit my training to ask questions. I have yet to have anyone take offense when I ask them a question about why they are teaching or doing something the way they are.

 

[WLMantisKid]

I think, to a certain extent, creating school hierarchy's with a belt system can bring down the level of quality. You'll have people who will think that they're better than the lower ranked and if a lower rank makes a simple observation about something the upper might be doing wrong. The lower ranked could be wrong, but the upper rank will never know because they didn't bother at least checking it.

I go to a traditional CMA school. The hierarchy - students and sifu.

 

[ppko]

It's absolutely ok because you should never stop learning and a lot of learning you do is from your students

 

[terryl965]

:ultracool I have been doing this for 40 years and I for one welcome all comments from anybody no matter if they wear a belt or not input is always a good forum to learn from, good, bad or indifference we as MAers can alway get the info. and digest it and take out what we need and disgard the rest.. GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[tmanifold]

I have been doing this kind of stuff for over a decade but I have very little rank to speak of due the fact that I jump around arts alot and many arts I did have no rank system. I have always been willing to add my opinions but I tend to do it respectfully. I might say something like, "Thats an interesting move, I have always done it this way. It has worked good for me in the past." As long as you don't give off an attitude or try to lecture them on their area of expertice, it is normally not a problem.

Tony

 

[TigerWoman]

I think, to a certain extent, creating school hierarchy's with a belt system can bring down the level of quality. You'll have people who will think that they're better than the lower ranked and if a lower rank makes a simple observation about something the upper might be doing wrong. The lower ranked could be wrong, but the upper rank will never know because they didn't bother at least checking it.

I didn't create our system, its just the way its done in our school. I create enough waves as I do. Taekwondo's format is different than Kenpo in that we do alot of repetition, more physical workout. Can't stop to answer questions. Master's job to answer. We don't do alot of technique workouts in set movements. Once a technique is taught at the beginning of the workout, we all just do it until the number is reached. A question is answered again by the master. Black belts don't stop their workout to answer an "observation" or get chewed out as well as the lower belt.

However, I do remember being a lower belt and asking questions of the black belts during sparring or doing forms and alot of the time I would get a grunt and ignored. As if I shouldn't have asked. So I do try to help as much as I can and teach too even though I'm not assigned to do that for someone. Been there, ya know. TW

 

[WLMantisKid]

But if you practive something over and over and you ignore outside observations, then you could be ingraining something wrong into your head. A habit that's hard to break.

 

[TigerWoman]

Yeah, I recognize that. Right now, I practice at home. I've tested for all the forms I do. But memory is a funny thing. So, I'm consulting my books and notes too all the time. Have been out of class for a month but daily workout/review.

For black belts, the master has instituted black belt "testings" actually reviews of our forms every 6 months but it is the complete black belt test done over. He grades everything we do, forms, kicks etc. with 1-10 grade. That can be good or bad depending on the objectivity/motivation behind the grade. Anyway, I usually asked the other 2nd dan for advice, since my master had refused to teach me for the last two years. I won't get into that again, but yes, we all need a teacher. TW

 

[MichiganTKD]

Each Black Belt's technique and manners are their own responsibility, and the responsibility of their Instructor. Which means, if I see a higher belt doing technique in a way I feel is wrong, unless he specifically asks for my input, I accept it as the way he does it.
Few things are more annoying than unsolicited advice. As a black belt, it is my responsibility to catch if I am doing things wrong. If I'm not sure, I can definitely ask a lower belt, especially one I feel has good technique. If I don't ask, don't give me advice. If my technique suffers because of it, so be it.
Even in black belt classes, I never saw black belts give unsolicited advice to each other.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Just curious: Have any of you ever given advice, constructive criticism, or a helpful observation to someone of higher rank or more experience than yourself? If so how did they take it? Does anyone think it's entirely inappropriate, and maybe even pretentious for someone to give help to a higher ranking classmate? How would you feel if someone of less rank and expereince than you attempted to help you with an observation about the way you do soemthing?

I'm only a mere 1st dan in my class, so I don't usually give "advice" to my fellow 1st dans or to the few 2nd dans, but once in a while, if I think it will help them, I'll point out an observation of mine. One example of this was a few classes ago when I was sparring one of the 2nd dans whom our instructor is hoping to have test soon. He's a lot taller than me, so he's got a pretty good reach advantage on me, and he doesn't have to worry so much about guarding his head until I get close up to him. But when I did get close (with no small effort on my part- he made me work for it), I was repeatedly able to get in some shots to his head that went mostly unanswered. I have a pretty good rapport with this guy (and with most people in our class), so after our sparring session was over I mentioned to him that I thought he wasn't raising his guard up when I came in. He thought about it for a second, and then said I might be right, and he thanked me. But later on I thought about our differences in rank and I wondered if some people might have thought that I was out of line.

How do some of you higher ranking folk feel when a young upstart like me disagrees with you on something martial arts related on an internet forum?

I never try to tell someone of higher rank that they are doing something wrong unless they come right out and ask me.

 

[cblaze230]

when i was teaching at the studio lower belts NEVER questioned the instructors as to the why it was done a certain way by one in a private or group setting. it was the genral understood rule that the instructor has command of the mat, period! full stop. any discrepencies (sp) were to be handled by the Head instructor, in private. at one point all instructors went through a two month 8-12 hour day each week (together) after lessons, teaching etc. to eliminate through repetition any personal technique influences that resulted in students questioning the instructors if it was being taught differently than what we learned. instructors Never questioned another instructor while on the floor or mat, or in front of another student. Q & A time for instructors was for our training day with each other and the Head instructor. any problems after that was between you and the big guy....usually very painful repititions involved there.

 

[tmanifold]

The other side of this is that as some one with a long history of martial arts behind me, in many arts, I have a hard time when I start a new art and some guy with a year total experience starts to impart his wisdom. Its not there fault and I am sure they are just trying to be helpful but it does bug me a bit.

Tony

 

[Blindside]

If I catch an error that my instructor is showing, I will point it out, admittedly I will be polite and try to put the error on myself: "I thought we were doing a technique XXX there???" The reason I will point it out is that otherwise we will have to turn around and fix the problem at the next class(es), an instructors ego shouldn't be bigger than the welfare of their students.

As for me being corrected by a underbelt, that is fine, I can and will learn from anybody. If I'm not doing something right, it should be pointed out.

Lamont

 

[Andrew Green]

No rank, so no problem

I get asked regularly, "What happens if...?", "Why don't you do it like this...?" "Can't he just do this...? etc. And reply "Let's try it" and we roll around for a bit and answer the question. Occasionally I get a suprise Which is good, cause I like to learn too. But usually things work out like I said they would, which is also good cause at least someone is thinking enough to question things and not just mindlessly following along and repeating what I do and say...

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hey Mich. Haven't seen you around lately.

You said: Few things are more annoying than unsolicited advice. As a black belt, it is my responsibility to catch if I am doing things wrong. If I'm not sure, I can definitely ask a lower belt, especially one I feel has good technique. If I don't ask, don't give me advice.

Okay. I agree that unsolicited advice is annoying. And yes, as a black belt you are entitled to conduct yourself in a certain manner. However. (And this is unsolicited advice, but please don't be annoyed with me because, by posting you tacitly agree to allow comments.) The way I see it, being a black belt is not only the sum total of years of hard work and training and blood and sweat and tears, it is also an attitude and a demeanor. [There are other threads in the forum which speak to whether respect is given or earned, so I won't go into that again.] It can be your responsibility, if you so choose, to set an example for others in your school. It is also your responsibility, if you so choose, to accept that there are people who don't quite "get it" and see things the way you do. There are those who will offer advice, and you can treat it as a learning experience for both of you, or you can get angry and offended. I personally don't take offense if a lower belt offers some advice (see my post upthread). I'm not infallible, and I welcome the opportunity for dialogue about something I truly love. :asian: KT