What amount of experience makes it onto your bio/resume?

[Tez3]

Crikey! I thought it was ‘official’ until just now! 😳

Good marketing though. 🙄

 

[Gyakuto]

Good marketing though. 🙄

Well, there was no alternative, either. As a 12yr old Karate kid I did what I was told and paid with a £3 postal order!😂

 

[Tez3]

Well, there was no alternative, either. As a 12yr old Karate kid I did what I was told and paid with a £3 postal order!😂

As long as you had the insurance you'd have been fine though.

 

[Tez3]

In the UK there's a lot of martial arts organisations just like the late MAC. They use 'Federation', 'Board ' and 'Council' as well as 'Commission' in their names to make them sound more official, often they will say they are the 'prime ' governing body.
As long as they provide insurances and licencing they are good. Some will oversee gradings and promotions but they are no more official than if you did them yourself. It's often easier to be part of a group, we have very few full time instructors here so having an organisation that does these, coaching courses and comps for you is good. TKD has it's own organisations as does Judo and some karate styles.

 

[J. Pickard]

How much experience or rank do you need in an art where it helps your resume instead of hurts it?

If you are running a for profit school, then none of this matters at all. I have had quite the influx of new students recently and more than a few are coming to us from a specific different school in the area. The other school is demonstrably more successful than I am, they have over 300 students at all times, an army of about 100 black belts (this is purely a reflection of their belt color, not skill or experience since some of their black belts have less than a year experience), and a loyal cult following. The thing is, the head "master" doesn't seem to have any actual legitimate rank. He has switched organizations and traveled across the Midwest finding people who he could buy rank from until he managed to put 7 stripes on his belt and call himself master (my instructor was one he attempted this with about 15 years ago and failed miserably). All I had to do to get these students in was start marketing with my title of "master" instead of just Mister. Nobody has ever asked what that title means, what rank it applies to, who certified this rank/title, they just accept it because they don't know any better.

The reason I bring this up because new students don't know any better and most don't care. Ask a layman about the Kukkiwon and the response you will likely get is "kukki what?". From a marketing standpoint new student have no idea what a sensei, sabumnim, master, or any of it means. The words "sensei" and "master" are more likely to bring in new students though so many people use them where they can regardless of earned rank. Most dont even know what belt colors mean since each style and school can have completely different color system. Rank will not get students in the door.

From a hiring perspective, personally, I look for physical ability, ability to convey information, approachability and friendliness above rank. Instructing is not for everyone and takes a certain finesse that some people will never learn. My newest instructor is only 2nd gup but she is a better instructor than many 4th dans I have met because she just has a natural talent at explaining things and is great with people. The BJJ school I trained at had an instructor that was a fresh purple belt for the beginner's adult class, he was a great instructor and could explain things better than some of their black belts. If a prospecting instructor came to me for a job, I wouldn't care about much more than a year of experience because I can help them learn more and this gives them a solid foundation to start with. What I would do is first run a background check, then give them a supervised trial period of a month where they would help out and assist a current instructor and by the end of the month would be running about 75% of the class time. Then I would make a decision.

 

[GojuTommy]

For me any reasonable amount honest formal training should go on.

1st degree black belt 5 years shotokan, and blue belt 1 year experience BJJ? Put them both on.

If a friend asked me to help them find a school for them or their kid, I’d see the above and think.
“5 year shodan? Sounds fairly legit. 1 yr of BJJ and blue belt? Open minded and looking to fill in their gaps in knowledge. Probably a pretty good place, if this is one of their instructors.”

Less than a year of formal training I’d keep off, and any informal/semi-formal training I’d keep off, or at best use “currently cross training in X” until you hit that 1 year of formal training time.

 

[Gyakuto]

If a friend asked me to help them find a school for them or their kid, I’d see the above and think.
“5 year shodan? Sounds fairly legit. 1 yr of BJJ and blue belt? Open minded and looking to fill in their gaps in knowledge. Probably a pretty good place, if this is one of their instructors.”

I’d follow a slightly different route. Rather than the years practised, I’d look for the governing association under which the dojo runs. Say it was Shotokan Karate and the governing body was the JKA or SKIF, then you know the grades and quality advertised are robust with a genuinely respected reputation. I’d be much less trustful of a Dan grade given solely from the ‘Koroddy Clan of Badiddly-Boing, Bowidaho’!

 

[GojuTommy]

I’d follow a slightly different route. Rather than the years practised, I’d look for the governing association under which the dojo runs. Say it was Shotokan Karate and the governing body was the JKA or SKIF, then you know the grades and quality advertised are robust with a genuinely respected reputation. I’d be much less trustful of a Dan grade given solely from the ‘Koroddy Clan of Badiddly-Boing, Bowidaho’!

Not all schools operate under a larger associations, and to most people not already in the martial arts community association membership likely won’t make any difference any way.

And personally the big major karate organizations I don’t hold in very high esteem.

Other styles like BJJ might benefit a bit more in general from the Gracie name, but the other orgs I don’t think are well known enough for a complete noob to have any recognition of.

 

[Gyakuto]

Not all schools operate under a larger associations, and to most people not already in the martial arts community association membership likely won’t make any difference any way.

And I'm suggesting these might be the 'danger zones'. "Hic sunt dracones"

And personally the big major karate organizations I don’t hold in very high esteem.

Why's that? What are your experiences?

Other styles like BJJ might benefit a bit more in general from the Gracie name, but the other orgs I don’t think are well known enough for a complete noob to have any recognition of.

Isn't this what the 'Interweb' is for? A newcomer to anything can, after a few hours exploration on the "compoo'uh", become very knowledgeable.

 

[Steve]

Ignoring the derail...

Even if you consider just one art, the rank is not the best measurement. If one school is stricter than the other, a black belt could mean 5 years of training vs. 2 in the same karate style. And as you get to higher rank, it often has little to do with your proficiency. And some schools don't have ranks in a normally-understood format (as an example, my rank is lakan something in PTK..I don't even remember the full title if I don't look it up, and I doubt anyone I tell it to would have any reference point for it).

Hell, even in the same school I've seen much more proficient 'high ranking' (low-kyu) colored belts be more proficient than their 1st dan peers. So personally I put more stock in time training than I do in rank.

That said, to newcomers they're not going to know that, so they might be impressed with rank, and if you have a high-enough rank that can be stated as a X dan or a master, it's probably worth putting it in. My personal recommendation, from a marketing standpoint, is to either put the rank with number of years in parenthesis (ie: 3rd Dan TKD (10 years), Purple Belt BJJ (3 years), etc.), or do whichever one seems more impressive, but stay consistent.

So with your example, if BJJ was a focus of my school, if I was writing a bio it would be something like "I have 10 years training in Tae-Kwon-Do. I also trained for 5 years in it's korean grappling counter-part, Hapkido and have spent the last 3 years devoting myself to brazilian jiujitsu." This lets people see your training, gives you the option to expand on lesser-known arts rather than just a listing someone might not understand, and gives you the chance to specify what training is recent (I've seen people list 2nd dan in judo when they haven't done judo in 20 years, and no context that their main current art is their 2nd dan in karate).

Coming in late to the thread, so this may be addressed by others. But sticking to time is a little unreliable. Purple belt in BJJ means something, but 5 years of training doesn't really communicate the same thing. How often you train, how rigorously you train, what the level of competition you engaged in was, etc. All of that will affect how much you accomplished in your 5 years, ranging from very little to possibly quite a lot.

I will just add that competitive styles have an advantage in that the rank tends to be better calibrated. A BJJ school that promotes students too slowly will gain a reputation for sandbagging. Too quickly, and they will gain a reputation for poor standards. So, a given rank in BJJ communicates something a little more objective than rank in a style that eschews competition (or any other form of external validation).

 

[GojuTommy]

And I'm suggesting these might be the 'danger zones'. "Hic sunt dracones"

Why's that? What are your experiences?

Isn't this what the 'Interweb' is for? A newcomer to anything can, after a few hours exploration on the "compoo'uh", become very knowledgeable.

My experience with big organizations is their schools are fast food franchises.
I’d rather a nice mom and pop diner. And in general don’t provide the sort of training I’d be comfortable recommending to someone who comes to me for advice.

Sure in an unaffiliated dojo there’s a chance for the head instructor to be a 15th Dan in 7 different martial arts, 6 of which are no touch chi BS. But that’s pretty rare overall.

 

[Steve]

My experience with big organizations is their schools are fast food franchises.
I’d rather a nice mom and pop diner. And in general don’t provide the sort of training I’d be comfortable recommending to someone who comes to me for advice.

Sure in an unaffiliated dojo there’s a chance for the head instructor to be a 15th Dan in 7 different martial arts, 6 of which are no touch chi BS. But that’s pretty rare overall.

It's an interesting analogy. As a consumer, the potential for GREAT food is higher at a local diner, but franchises have some real advantages, as well.

 

[skribs]

My experience with big organizations is their schools are fast food franchises.
I’d rather a nice mom and pop diner. And in general don’t provide the sort of training I’d be comfortable recommending to someone who comes to me for advice.

Sure in an unaffiliated dojo there’s a chance for the head instructor to be a 15th Dan in 7 different martial arts, 6 of which are no touch chi BS. But that’s pretty rare overall.

This is why I like the current implementation that Kukkiwon has. They are among the biggest (if not THE biggest) Taekwondo organizations. They're the second worldwide organization, and the one currently approved of by South Korea.

Kukkiwon has a set of 8 forms and a sparring ruleset that you need to follow to get black belt, and then a new form for every degree of black belt. You're also expected to do board breaking on your tests, but as far as I know they aren't very well defined.

The amount of time you spend on those forms or sparring is entirely up to the school. The amount of other stuff you add is entirely up to the school. Some schools may be:

• Competitive sparring focused, with 90% of class time devoted to kicking, kicking drills, conditioning, and sparring; with 10% remaining focused on forms.
• Forms focused, where you just do forms up until brown belt, and then start sparring.
• Forms focused, where you do 60% forms, 30% sparring and related drills, and 10% self-defense. However, instead of just the 8 forms from Kukkiwon, you also have 15 other forms and 30 mini-forms to really hammer home the forms.
• Self-defense focused, where you do 20% forms, 20% sparring, and 60% self-defense that more resembles a Hapkido or Kenpo class. This may be based on more traditional Taekwondo and its Karate roots, or it may be based on other martial arts the Master has trained (such as Hapkido or Kenpo, or Judo, boxing, etc).

Personally, I'm not overly fond of the Kukkiwon's forms, and there's a couple of reservations I have about their sparring. Of course, I could do 25% KKW forms, 25% other forms, 25% KKW sparring, and 25% other sparring and have a KKW school that has my style of forms and sparring.

I also said "current implementation" because there's talks of adding a self-defense curriculum and competition forms. The more they add, the less flexibility I would have.

 

[GojuTommy]

It's an interesting analogy. As a consumer, the potential for GREAT food is higher at a local diner, but franchises have some real advantages, as well.

I would never recommend someone go to an ATA school for example. I’d recommend they just burn their money and watch YouTube before that.

Even with franchises the recipes might be the same, but the amount of care taken and over all quality of service will vary.

I’m sure we all have had franchise locations we’ve avoided for years because of consistent bad service or improperly prepared food

 

[Gyakuto]

It's an interesting analogy. As a consumer, the potential for GREAT food is higher at a local diner, but franchises have some real advantages, as well.

Have you seen 'Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares USA'?

 

[GojuTommy]

Have you seen 'Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares USA'?

No but I’ve seen bar rescue lol.

If he went to a Burger King he’d likely find a lot of the same things though based on what I remember of working at BK in high school.

 

[Steve]

I would never recommend someone go to an ATA school for example. I’d recommend they just burn their money and watch YouTube before that.

Even with franchises the recipes might be the same, but the amount of care taken and over all quality of service will vary.

I’m sure we all have had franchise locations we’ve avoided for years because of consistent bad service or improperly prepared food

Sure, but I'd say there is a meaningful difference between, say, McDonalds chains and Shake Shack. Same food, both chains, but the quality of one is consistently lower than the other.

I'd say the same in MA. I mean, Gracie Barra is as fast foody as a BJJ affiliation gets, but they have a good product that is going to work for most people.

Anyway, it's just an observation. The fast food analogy comes up every so often, and I thought I'd share my opinions.

 

[Steve]

No but I’ve seen bar rescue lol.

If he went to a Burger King he’d likely find a lot of the same things though based on what I remember of working at BK in high school.

My first job was at a McDonald's, and we kept that place immaculate. "Time to lean, time to clean." That was in the 1980s, though, so not sure if the culture of McD's has changed over the years.

 

[GojuTommy]

Sure, but I'd say there is a meaningful difference between, say, McDonalds chains and Shake Shack. Same food, both chains, but the quality of one is consistently lower than the other.

I'd say the same in MA. I mean, Gracie Barra is as fast foody as a BJJ affiliation gets, but they have a good product that is going to work for most people.

Anyway, it's just an observation. The fast food analogy comes up every so often, and I thought I'd share my opinions.

Yeah, most big associations I’d only recommend if someone wants a martial arts themed baby sitter or martial arts themed cardio work out.

Like some one posted a TKD org that requires board breaking…like why? At one point it’s not really hard or difficult, but then you very quickly get to point of just being ridiculous. Looks good to outsiders though I guess.

 

[skribs]

Like some one posted a TKD org that requires board breaking…like why? At one point it’s not really hard or difficult, but then you very quickly get to point of just being ridiculous. Looks good to outsiders though I guess.

Board breaking is very common in Eastern martial arts.