Help Requested Locating A General Choi Quote

[dancingalone]

Can someone point me out to which publication if it exists where General Choi wrote or said that a first degree black belt should be able to defend himself against a single attacker? Does he also ever set out what the performance expectations are for each degree of black belt (or geup ranks too for that matter)? Thanks.

 

[Cyriacus]

You mean in order to be a first degree blackbelt you need to be impervious to harm? Wow. Thats a high bar.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Can someone point me out to which publication if it exists where General Choi wrote or said that a first degree black belt should be able to defend himself against a single attacker? Does he also ever set out what the performance expectations are for each degree of black belt (or geup ranks too for that matter)? Thanks.

I've seen it in his 1972 textbook, as well as his Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do (every edition). Don't remember if it's in the 1965 book. IIRC, the quote is in the section on rank and its meaning. (I'm on vacatioon right now so don't have access to the book itself.)

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

If you have the full set of encyclopedias the quote is in the first volume, in the section entitled "Significance of first degree" (directly after the "Criteria for Grade and Degree" section). It's on page 94 of volume one in the first edition of the encyclopedia.

You can find it here: http://bluecottagetkd.com/files/vol01.pdf

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

From the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do:

First Degree – Expert or Novice? One of the greatest misconceptions within the martial arts is the notion that all black belt holders are experts. It is understandable that those unacquainted with the martial arts might make this equation. However, students should certainly recognize that this is not always the case. Too often, novice black holders advertise themselves as experts and eventually even convince themselves.
The first degree black belt holder has usually learned enough technique to defend himself against a single opponent. He can be compared to a fledging who has acquired enough feathers to leave the nest and fend for himself. The first degree is a starting point. The student has merely built a foundation. The job of building a house lies ahead. The novice black belt holder will now really begin to learn technique. Now that he has mastered the alphabet, he can begin to read. Years of hard work and study await him before he can even begin to consider himself an instructor and expert.
A perceptive student will, at this stage, suddenly realize how little he knows. The black belt holder also enters a new era of responsibility. Though a freshman, he has entered a strong honorable fraternity of the black belt holders of the entire world; and his actions inside and outside the training hall will be carefully scrutinized. His conduct will reflect on all black belt holders and he must constantly strive to set an example for all grade holders. Some will certainly advance into the expert stages. However, far too many will believe the misconception and will remain in novice, mentally and technically.

Pax,

Chris

PS
Yep, I'm bored.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

From the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do:
Though a freshman, he has entered a strong honorable fraternity of the black belt holders of the entire world.

Is the book geared towards Americans? I was surprised to see the term "freshman" as I think of it as an American term. For example, if an American told me he was a high school junior, I'd ask "is that 10th grade?". Freshman, junior, etc are not terms I have ever used in Canada.

 

[rlobrecht]

Is the book geared towards Americans? I was surprised to see the term "freshman" as I think of it as an American term. For example, if an American told me he was a high school junior, I'd ask "is that 10th grade?". Freshman, junior, etc are not terms I have ever used in Canada.

In general it goes: freshman, sophomore, junior, senior in both high school and undergraduate college.

 

[Gnarlie]

You mean in order to be a first degree blackbelt you need to be impervious to harm? Wow. Thats a high bar.

Surely 'defend themselves' has room for a bit of interpretation. I read 'come out alive against', in which case the bar is slightly lower.

Gnarlie

 

[Cyriacus]

Surely 'defend themselves' has room for a bit of interpretation. I read 'come out alive against', in which case the bar is slightly lower.

Gnarlie

I guess it depends on what theyre coming out alive against

 

[Gorilla]

The quote is very different in the context of the whole paragraph!

A first Dan BB is clearly not an expert as he sees it!

 

[Cyriacus]

The quote is very different in the context of the whole paragraph!

A first Dan BB is clearly not an expert as he sees it!

Na. Hes just impervious to harm

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The quote is very different in the context of the whole paragraph!

A first Dan BB is clearly not an expert as he sees it!

I dont think anyone sees a black belt as an "expert", or why bother having dans 2-9. In my view however, a black belt should be able to defend themself against most people and even if they lose they should make a bloody good account of themselves. Im sure that is what Choi meant.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I dont think anyone sees a black belt as an "expert", or why bother having dans 2-9. In my view however, a black belt should be able to defend themself against most people and even if they lose they should make a bloody good account of themselves. Im sure that is what Choi meant.

Do you feel that there would be an difference between the "average" ITF TKD practioner, vs. WTF TKD practitioner? My feeling is that the average person getting a KKW BB would be almost no better off than when he started his training.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Do you feel that there would be an difference between the "average" ITF TKD practioner, vs. WTF TKD practitioner? My feeling is that the average person getting a KKW BB would be almost no better off than when he started his training.

I could never make such a broad statement because from one club to another there could be a vast difference. BUT, the average kkw black belt in my area would be virtually no better off in a fight than they would have been the day they started. I havent seen enough ITF black belts to know. I have been doing shotokan in conjunction with my tkd for eight months now, and the first dan black belts there I would not want to mess with.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do you feel that there would be an difference between the "average" ITF TKD practioner, vs. WTF TKD practitioner? My feeling is that the average person getting a KKW BB would be almost no better off than when he started his training.

Yes, the average ITF BB has been trained to defend against and use punches to the head in sparring. Doesn't mean the Kukki / WTF person couldn't be trained to do this, but how much time and effort do you want to expend to defend agains illegal techniques? Same reason an ITF BB does not train to defend against a choke.

 

[dancingalone]

Do you feel that there would be an difference between the "average" ITF TKD practioner, vs. WTF TKD practitioner? My feeling is that the average person getting a KKW BB would be almost no better off than when he started his training.

I'm going to ignore the organization aspect altogether when I say sometimes I'm very puzzled when I read opinions like this. At the lowest common denominator, taekwondoin train both to strike and avoid strikes. Surely that is of value if practiced in an environment where application and focus is important.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, the average ITF BB has been trained to defend against and use punches to the head in sparring. Doesn't mean the Kukki / WTF person couldn't be trained to do this, but how much time and effort do you want to expend to defend agains illegal techniques? Same reason an ITF BB does not train to defend against a choke.

I think the actual organization isn't the issue - it's what the individual school owner chooses to concentrate on that matters. My school is not focused on competition training thus we can and do teach things like clinching, dirty boxing, and defenses against attacks like grabs or chokes. It's not with beginners, but if you stick with training at our school, you will gain exposure and eventually competency in such things.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I think the actual organization isn't the issue - it's what the individual school owner chooses to concentrate on that matters.

I agree with you on that. Maybe I should have said "the average KKW BB at an average school". I just see so much defense based on a stationary attacker (ie.., I will grab your collar and not move while you do your 3 moves) who won't punch to the head that I really feel that out of the BB candidates I have seen, most are no better off than with no training.

The last 3 WTF-style clubs where I practised had no kicking to the lower body, and little punching to the head. One time, I was to do open sparring on a guy moving a large pad around, and I would do say a faking jab to the face followed by a kick, or a low kick to the knee level, followed by a higher kick; I was told not to do that - only practice kicks above the waist. My fear is more that the kids/teens don't think about someone punching them to the face and what they are exposing themselves to when they do what they have practised, a mid-level kick with hands low and sometimes a little off balance.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm going to ignore the organization aspect altogether when I say sometimes I'm very puzzled when I read opinions like this. At the lowest common denominator, taekwondoin train both to strike and avoid strikes. Surely that is of value if practiced in an environment where application and focus is important.

I think the organisation has to be taken into account because its what an organisation deems a black belt to represent that will determine the standard of a black belt. If an org sees a first degree as "just the beginning" then I wouldnt expect much from their black belts.

 

[dancingalone]

I think the organisation has to be taken into account because its what an organisation deems a black belt to represent that will determine the standard of a black belt. If an org sees a first degree as "just the beginning" then I wouldnt expect much from their black belts.

I don't think so. Again, it boils down to what the individual school owner wants for his own program. Organization can play a small role in that to an extent due to cultural (not necessarily by nation) expectations, but in the end, someone local is making that decision to promote someone to chodan/ildan.