help a noobie out..crane, mantis, taiji, tiger

[gchan]

hello everyone noobie here,

Just looking for some advice. After 6 years of tkd and a bit of 18 hands of lohan, I've decided to delve further into the world of CMA. I've done quite a bit of research and eliminated quite a few CMA schools in my city. Basically I've come down to 4 schools 2 of which I'm not sure about at all. They are a Tibetan White Crane school, a Mantis Tai Chi school, a Chen style Tai Chi school and a White Tiger kung fu school. Can anyone familiar with these styles tell me about them? I'll put some additional info I know about them below. So far to me the crane place looks the best with no yellowpages ad or internet website and located in a kind of rundown central location but these are just assumptions.

Lineage:

Shang De Tai Chi Mantis: The sifu there is Ng Tai Man who learnt from Chiu Chuk Kai who learnt from Chi Sow Jun. http://www.taichimantis.org

Chen Tai Chi Chuan: This place has Chen Zhong Hua as its grandmaster and he was disciple of Hong Jun Sheng and Feng Zhi Qian creator of Hun yuan Tai Ji. Also kind of doubtful here mainly because it's a huge franchise worldwide locations. http://www.chenzhonghua.com

White tiger: This one I have rather many doubts about and only include it becasue I don't know anything about. http://www.shaolinkungfuacademy.com the guy who started it is a Grandmaster Vincent J. Peppers who founded American bak fu pai. Never seen anything like the organizations site before really wierd. http://kwandai.com

 

[Flying Crane]

I do Tibetan White Crane, and I love it. I consider it my primary art and is where I spend most of my time and effort in training.

It is a very long-arm art, probably about as long-arm as you can get. We use a full-body pivot to throw our punches, and it generates a tremendous amount of power. This includes an exaggerated reverse swing with the opposite arm to help with the torque. Basically, your arms and shoulders are very relaxed and you punch with the body. They land like sledgehammers, once you get the idea, but it's kind of weird.

Crane is a very very demanding art, physically. Because the exaggerated swing leaves you somewhat open, you have to be very very fast with it, and that is difficult. Also, if you have bad shoulders it might not be a good art for you.

The sets are long with a lot of movement, and are done like running sprints. My sifu calls it a "young man's art", because it is so physical.

I also do Chen tai chi, and I like that a lot as well, but it is completely different from the Crane. I am more interested in the external arts at this point in my life, so my tai chi is somewhat peripheral. My sifu is also a student of Feng Zhi Qian. While I have never met Master Feng, I understand he is quite amazing. If you are interesting in Tai Chi, I think Chen is a good choice, but tai chi is subtle and difficult in different ways. It requires a lot of patience and introspection.

Where are you located, and who is the Crane teacher?

 

[gchan]

I am in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I've yet to actually go to the place and check it out so I do not know who the sifu is. Will check though.

 

[Flying Crane]

Shang De Tai Chi Mantis: The sifu there is Ng Tai Man who learnt from Chiu Chuk Kai who learnt from Chi Sow Jun. http://www.taichimantis.org

Chen Tai Chi Chuan: This place has Chen Zhong Hua as its grandmaster and he was disciple of Hong Jun Sheng and Feng Zhi Qian creator of Hun yuan Tai Ji. Also kind of doubtful here mainly because it's a huge franchise worldwide locations. http://www.chenzhonghua.com

White tiger: This one I have rather many doubts about and only include it becasue I don't know anything about. http://www.shaolinkungfuacademy.com the guy who started it is a Grandmaster Vincent J. Peppers who founded American bak fu pai. Never seen anything like the organizations site before really wierd. http://kwandai.com

OK, I just poked around on these websites. The Tai Chi Mantis site had really no info other than the name of the teacher.

The Chen Tai Chi website looks like they are really teaching a lot of Modern Wushu, which is not real martial arts. It is a performance and competition art based on the old fighting systems, but is no longer a true fighting system. There is a thread in the Chinese Arts forum, I think entitled something like "is wushu detrimental to the Chinese martial arts?" Check out the discussion there for more info on this. The wushu is in reference to the external arts that they are teaching. However, they may well be teaching good Chen Tai Chi. I couldn't really tell for sure.

The White Tiger looks really weird. The website is under construction so there is no real info on it, so I went to Vincent Pepper's website and he looks like someone to avoid. Sounds like he fancies himself some kind of spiritual guru and he is gonna try to run every aspect of your life. His website gave me the heebie jeebies. From what I see here, go for the Crane. Chen Tai Chi would be second, but personally I avoid the Modern Wushu stuff. Only do the Chen if it hasn't been tampered with and turned into a Modern Wushu variant. Tai Chi Mantis might be ok, but just can't tell at all from the website, so I put that in third place. White tiger, avoid like the pestilence that it probably is.

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, I take it back about the Tai Chi Mantis. I figured out there is a description about the teacher's history. This gives a bit more to go on. While I know nothing about the system or this teacher, I think it would be worth checking out. Visit the school and see what it is like. It is probably pretty traditional.

 

[gchan]

great! So I'm not the only person who's scared to death of that white tiger thing. I'm well aware of wushu hehehe had a friend who did it for a few years let's just say he's not all that good at boxing. The most important thing for me right now is a good traditional Chinese training style like I received with the 18 hands of lohan. I agree it's looking like the Crane for sure though I wanted another's opinion. I'd like to know more about Crane though. I never knew it was so external like the way you described it as whaling with the fists, I always thought it would be a combination of hard and soft. Is there a bodybuild more suited to Crane? cuz I'm kinda built like a crane really lean with disproportionately long limbs and hard bones. (5'11 and about 150 lbs)

 

[Flying Crane]

great! So I'm not the only person who's scared to death of that white tiger thing. I'm well aware of wushu hehehe had a friend who did it for a few years let's just say he's not all that good at boxing. The most important thing for me right now is a good traditional Chinese training style like I received with the 18 hands of lohan. I agree it's looking like the Crane for sure though I wanted another's opinion. I'd like to know more about Crane though. I never knew it was so external like the way you described it as whaling with the fists, I always thought it would be a combination of hard and soft. Is there a bodybuild more suited to Crane? cuz I'm kinda built like a crane really lean with disproportionately long limbs and hard bones. (5'11 and about 150 lbs)

Your build is probably pretty good. I'm about 5'9" to 5'10" and about 150 so you're pretty close to me. You don't want to be a big body builder. Big shoulders make crane really difficult.

There is internal stuff in crane, but I haven't learned it. This is, by the way, entirely different from Fujian Crane, also known as Southern Shaolin Crane. Entirely different technique altogether.

In the Tibetan, the basic idea is that we charge down the opponent and throw these crazy punches from every direction as fast as we can until the opponent is overwhelmed and goes down. Once you start, you don't stop. It is not a good art for tournament style sparring, because of this "all or nothing" approach. If you do it halfway, then you are open and you will lose every time. It' pushing 1:00 a.m., so I gotta hit the sack. If you have other questions, I'll try to give you some info in the morning.

 

[gchan]

You've been a great help thanks a bunch. Just a few more questions after you've gotten some sleep if you don't mind. I notice you say punches alot, does this mean that it is focused on fists or is there the element of open hand? I'm guessing that this is a really aggressive art so what kind of evasive movements are there and are they extensive? Are the stances predominantly high, low or constantly shifting? As to the legs what kind of kicks do you guys do? Are there alot of locks etc?

thx again hope this isn't too much trouble.

 

[clfsean]

Keep it simple... The Taiji Mantis or White Crane. CCK is a pretty well known & respected name in the Mantis community.

 

[Flying Crane]

You've been a great help thanks a bunch. Just a few more questions after you've gotten some sleep if you don't mind. I notice you say punches alot, does this mean that it is focused on fists or is there the element of open hand? I'm guessing that this is a really aggressive art so what kind of evasive movements are there and are they extensive? Are the stances predominantly high, low or constantly shifting? As to the legs what kind of kicks do you guys do? Are there alot of locks etc?

thx again hope this isn't too much trouble.

We have what we consider the eight main punches of white crane. There are certainly more than these, and there are also many open hand and other hand formations, and these are found in the forms, but for some reason the eight are considered Primary, and are closed fist.

Chien cho - Straight/charging punch
Pau Choi - Cannon Fist, a straight armed rising strike with the top of the fist
Kup Choi - a downward raking fist
Deng Choi - a downward backfist
bien choi - a backward backfist
Chou Choi - a hooking punch with the top of the fist
guu choi - a downward backfist to the front
sou jong - uppercut

I'm not sure on the spelling of these, but this is phonetic.

In addition, we use crane beaks, tiger claws, palm strikes, knifehands, etc.

The way I have been taught, crane likes to keep a distance. It is really focused on hit-and-run and doesn't like to engage in grappling. However, there are certainly chin-na and gripping and sweeping movements found in the forms, so we have our share of that kind of thing as well. I have seen other people make reference to the grappling aspect, so it may be that different people have a different focus in how they train it. Personal preference, I suppose.

The kicks we do have been primarily front, and crescent kicks of various types, with some jumping kicks and tornado kicks. I have trained in other styles so I do the whole range of kicks and I sometimes forget which came from where.

Stances are sort of high for our mobility, but we do transition thru low stances as well.

Evasive movements are more subtle. We don't do the typical blocking that is common in many styles esp. karate, like the inward, outward, upward, and downward blocks. Our body movement often acts as evasive and parrying movements. When we pivot our torso in throwing an attack, this also acts to help deflect an incoming attack off the body so that it doesn't land solidly. The swinging of the arms also is used to intercept incoming attacks and sweep them out of the way.

This is pretty hard to describe in writing and give you a clear understanding, so don't make a strong judgement based on what I am telling you. Definitely check out the class and I would love to hear about it. I will see my sifu tomorrow, and will ask him if he knows who is teaching in Edmonton.

 

[7starmantis]

Wow, yeah I got the creeps from his page too! Looks to me from the surface wither TC Mantis or Crane. I couldn't get much information off the mantis site, but his reputation would at least lead me to check him out. I say visit both schools and see which one fits you best.

7sm

 

[gchan]

great! thx for your time I appreciate it.

 

[arnisador]

There are many questions about the veracity of the White Tiger claims. I would be biased toward the Crane or Mantis, if self-defense is the goal...but check them all out!