Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[TrueJim]

I think this discussion applies not only to taekwondo, but to sport martial arts in general:

• Boxing is not really very much like a real-world fist-fight
• Wrestling (Greco-Roman, Sumo, Ssireum, etc.) is not very much like real-world grappling
• Fencing is not very much like a real-world sword fight
• Sport archery is not very much like bow-hunting
• Target-shooting is not very much like a real-word gunfight

For any kind of martial art (karate, taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, shooting, etc.), once you make-up rules and apply a scoring system, the combatants are going to change the way they execute in order to maximize their scores. The sport version of the art isn't going to look very much like the combat version of the art.

 

[Drose427]

The thing thats really hurt TKD's reputation is peoples misconceptions that Kukki is the only TKD. Or that ITF demos are the prime example of ITF. People see something and assume that exactly how it all is and it's wrong

 

[Gnarlie]

The thing thats really hurt TKD's reputation is peoples misconceptions that Kukki is the only TKD. Or that ITF demos are the prime example of ITF. People see something and assume that exactly how it all is and it's wrong

Are you suggesting Kukki TKD gives a bad impression of the art as a whole?

If you mean that people understand WTF regulated competition Taekwondo to represent the full art, then I understand your point as there is a depth to the art that is not best showcased by that format.

If you are suggesting that Kukki TKD is in some way deficient in relation to the wider range of Tae Kwon Do styles, I would have to disagree...

 

[Drose427]

Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.

 

[TrueJim]

Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.

I wonder if perhaps taekwondo is a victim of its own success. Taekwondo is commonly cited as being the most popular martial art in the world. I wonder if any martial art -- once it becomes that popular -- would struggle with the same issues. Like, imagine if krav maga were to become the most popular martial art in the world. It's so popular that parents are lining up to enroll their young children in krava maga classes in shopping-center after-school programs all across the suburbs, teens are uploading YouTube videos of krava maga-inspired dance routines, it becomes an Olympic-level event with rules tailored for sport competition -- all of that stuff is happening because krav maga is just that darn popular.

So then common folk look at all that peripheral activity and conclude, "Krav Maga -- that's no martial art! All that dancin' and hoppin' and YouTubin'!" Maybe the only way to keep a martial art "pure" is to make sure it remains unpopular.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.

No, it's not. The "ill-informed" cannot reasonably be expected to know more than they've been shown. If people come away from a demo with an unrealistic view of what TKD has to offer, it's the fault of the people performing the demo.
That's what a demo is after all; a chance to show the "ill-informed" what TKD really is.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think this discussion applies not only to taekwondo, but to sport martial arts in general:

• Boxing is not really very much like a real-world fist-fight
• Wrestling (Greco-Roman, Sumo, Ssireum, etc.) is not very much like real-world grappling
• Fencing is not very much like a real-world sword fight
• Sport archery is not very much like bow-hunting
• Target-shooting is not very much like a real-word gunfight

For any kind of martial art (karate, taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, shooting, etc.), once you make-up rules and apply a scoring system, the combatants are going to change the way they execute in order to maximize their scores. The sport version of the art isn't going to look very much like the combat version of the art.

I'm not sure boxing is the best example. An experienced boxer could and likely would fight very similarly on the street as in a ring.

A better example would be BJJ. The sport competition aspect of BJJ has grown just as far away from street application as Olympic TKD has. (This is to the dismay of some in the BJJ world.)

So far, the "non-street" nature of sport BJJ doesn't seem to have ruined the reputation of BJJ as a martial art. I think it's only a problem if practitioners train exclusively for competition and neglect the martial aspects. I guess the same probably applies to TKD.

 

[Shajikfer]

I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.

I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.

One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.

You think it's true?

I actually do think it true. Last time I watched the olympics, at least three different schools I either attended or practiced at after they had closed were cracking jokes about it. And when people do that, one might want to reconsider what they are doing.

A better way to put it is- If someone pulled a knife, would you do olympic TKD? I wouldn't, so why bother with it in my opinion outside of trying to make money off a sport. That's all it is- a sport. And I don't practice martial arts because it is a 'sport'.

 

[Drose427]

I actually do think it true. Last time I watched the olympics, at least three different schools I either attended or practiced at after they had closed were cracking jokes about it. And when people do that, one might want to reconsider what they are doing.

A better way to put it is- If someone pulled a knife, would you do olympic TKD? I wouldn't, so why bother with it in my opinion outside of trying to make money off a sport. That's all it is- a sport. And I don't practice martial arts because it is a 'sport'.

Maybe not, but many many people do. Its not likw these schools are claiming to be this "super RBSD" program, they know what they are. Usually they capitalize on sport and self growth.

If they arent all lying and money grubbing, let them have their niche.

Theres plenty of other tkd out there covering what you want.

Its not the arts fault the founders of fhe 9 kwans had to give so many different things the same name (which imo is one of the things that did hurt it).

Fact is, many folks love sport tkd, even if they could take Traditional or ITF that has a strong SD program.


Its only hurt the reputation from folks who think its the epitome. When really its the most marketed form

 

[ATC]

Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.

 

[Drose427]

Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.

My Sah Bum Nim competed in the '97 (or '99, cant remember the exact year) junior olympics, sparred a Lopez regularly (steve I believe as I think Mark was too yound), still does a lot of their exercises/workouts, and I have had the broken ribs and bruises to prove it. Even when we bust out the chest protectors, its pretty easy to tell where his feet have been. I couldnt begin to imagine sparring someone whos regularly competing at the highest level.

The few mid level competitors Ive sparred corroborate that. I mean, these guys break ribs and bruise through chest protectors...thats no easy task. I personally think chest protectors are why folks who regularly compete kick so hard.

There was a good article in TKD times about how many of the TKD associations can't seem to get along. I know my Grandmaster split and he and others form a separate association because they didnt like the direction of Kukki TKD

Frankly, I think the various TKD's are defined enough that you can find what youre looking for.

If you love competition and like sport TKD, do it!

If you want SD, its not that hard to find, not nearly as hard as some folks will try to say.

I think more folks need to just accept the different Orgs. If you dont like how one is, dont train that one..

Trying to have one central type has almost never worked in Martial Arts, people have different opinions and desires and its pointless to try. We all have TKD on our uniforms, who cares about intentions?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As long as you try to follow the "sport" rule-set and win, you will always build up bad habit.

In

- kicking sport such as TKD, the grappling is ignored.
- grappling sport such as wrestling, the striking is ignored.

Even in BJJ, the "sport" can lead the MA into a funny zone.

 

[Drose427]

As long as you try to follow the "sport" rule-set and win, you will always build up bad habit.

In

- kicking sport such as TKD, the grappling is ignored.
- grappling sport such as wrestling, the striking is ignored.

Even in BJJ, the "sport" can lead the MA into a funny zone.

Thats the opposite of the royler gracie/gracie killer fight where rorion butt slide all over the place

and people wonder why I think BJJ can be weird sometimes

 

[Jaeimseu]

Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.

I agree. Pretty much 100% of us wouldn't get out of the first round unless the other guy had mercy. It would take about 30-60 seconds for them to figure out we had nothing and then things would quickly go south for us. Olympic level TKD athletes are at a different level and it's a level that I bet the vast majority here have never experienced.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I saw one of my cats do that once, as a kitten.

 

[Shajikfer]

I agree. Pretty much 100% of us wouldn't get out of the first round unless the other guy had mercy. It would take about 30-60 seconds for them to figure out we had nothing and then things would quickly go south for us. Olympic level TKD athletes are at a different level and it's a level that I bet the vast majority here have never experienced.

I'm not entirely sure of that. I am sure we have all met martial artists who if they went to the olympics would clear house, but have opted not to.

It's a different level of fighting ability, and I don't think it has to do with any particular art... just particular people.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm not entirely sure of that. I am sure we have all met martial artists who if they went to the olympics would clear house, but have opted not to.

It's a different level of fighting ability, and I don't think it has to do with any particular art... just particular people.

I didn't mean to imply that it was specifically taekwondo athletes who would "clear house." Most people have never seen a world class athlete up close. I doubt that most of us have met or trained with martial artists who are truly world class. I used to think I knew people who were great. Then I moved to Korea and discovered that there were guys performing at a whole different level. The gap between the elite competitors and typical "really good" martial artists is significant, in my opinion.

 

[Gnarlie]

I didn't mean to imply that it was specifically taekwondo athletes who would "clear house." Most people have never seen a world class athlete up close. I doubt that most of us have met or trained with martial artists who are truly world class. I used to think I knew people who were great. Then I moved to Korea and discovered that there were guys performing at a whole different level. The gap between the elite competitors and typical "really good" martial artists is significant, in my opinion.

Very much agree. I was lucky enough to spend some time with the Korean youth team a while back. They are on course for the Olympics in a few years but are already on fire. It just doesn't matter how good you are, it is a humbling experience. Absolutely in a different league in terms of speed, power, fitness, timing, strategy, technique, just everything.

Trying to kick them, suddenly your timing and distancing seems off, and you become very aware that you are being played, and it's only a matter of time before they take you apart.

Different world.

 

[WaterGal]

I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.

Hah, that's very, very true. Athletes at that level are incredibly skilled, fast, and strong. They could kick the heck out of most people in a heartbeat. Olympic TKD matches seem like "there's not a lot going on" or whatever because they're so good and so well-matched that they're playing a whole different game than most of us. It's kind of like how FIFA matches always seem to end with a 0-1 score - it's not because the teams are bad!

 

[Tez3]

Hah, that's very, very true. Athletes at that level are incredibly skilled, fast, and strong. They could kick the heck out of most people in a heartbeat. Olympic TKD matches seem like "there's not a lot going on" or whatever because they're so good and so well-matched that they're playing a whole different game than most of us. It's kind of like how FIFA matches always seem to end with a 0-1 score - it's not because the teams are bad!

Well it would depend who they are going up against, a friend of mine asked me to spar with his TKD black just to teach them there's other ways of sparring really, I got in close and kicked low, punched and did take downs. They weren't used to it, there was no 'distance' between us to do their kicks. I knew they could kick high and fast so I made sure I wasn't in a position where they could do that.

They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.