Has anyone had to use Wing-Chun for self-defense ?

Mider

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If Wing chun is ineffective it’s the lack of the artist ability. Wing chun is undoubtedly the most effective from a scientific viewpoint. Then if you add neigong (if you can do it that is), you would be a serious force. But since people think the esoteric practices and higher levels are just silly, I really have no interest in continuing to refer to them (esp if it’s a point of cynicism). Oh well if no one here knows about it and never heard of it being done, I get it. I guess I’m just a fortunate practitioner.

Train on boys!
There are Systema masters like George S Pogacich who have beat up former mma fighters.

Master Steve Smith said his teacher was a Daois priest.

i find a lot of these discussions pointless. It often turns into style bashing or e does debating.
 

Teapot

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Wing chun is undoubtedly the most effective from a scientific viewpoint.

Consider how many Chinese martial arts styles, substyles, and lineages there are.

Given your experiences mainly revolve around Sun Lutang's lineage and Wing Chun, do you feel that you have enough data points to make such a definitive claim of any martial art style being the "most effective from a scientific viewpoint"?

You have said in a different thread:
The best Wing chun school (4th internal art to me) is in queens in my opinion.

Your statement about the best Wing Chun school being in Queens suggests a geographical limitation in your assessment.

there was no wutAng around besides chinatown and I’m not Chinese so I’m not going to bother them when I know I’m not really wanted
Avoiding schools in certain areas due to perceived unwelcomeness, while understandable on a personal level, could narrow the scope of your assessment.

A truly scientific mindset is not just about what we've personally seen or experienced, but also the vastness of what we haven't.

Scientists cannot say things like: "We are the only lifeforms in the universe." They need to word it like: "We are the only known life forms in the universe." There could be other lifeforms out there, but we lack the evidence for it. Scientifically minded folks are very careful with definitive statements.

If you wanted to phrase things with a more scientific mindset, I think it could have been worded like: "Among the martial arts I've practiced, I deem Wing Chun to be the most effective."

And to be fair, this works in reverse. If someone thinks Wing Chun is ineffective, then a scientific way of expressing that is: "In my experience, I have yet to see any evidence of Wing Chun, on its own, being effective."

We all have different "datasets" based on our own experiences, but it's quite bold to assume that one's dataset is an objective representation of everything that's out there.

When people say that "Tai Chi" sucks or is least effective, I completely sympathize with them. I don't blame them for thinking that way. Statistically, I think they're correct. While I can cherry-pick the very few that are effective, it's often not helpful because most people do not have access to it in their area. Whatever access to Tai Chi they do have will probably all suck.
 

Oily Dragon

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If Wing chun is ineffective it’s the lack of the artist ability. Wing chun is undoubtedly the most effective from a scientific viewpoint.
Not really, because if you had to stack up a list of effective Wing Chun combatants over the last 100 years, you'd end up with almost zero
Then if you add neigong (if you can do it that is), you would be a serious force. But since people think the esoteric practices and higher levels are just silly, I really have no interest in continuing to refer to them (esp if it’s a point of cynicism). Oh well if no one here knows about it and never heard of it being done, I get it. I guess I’m just a fortunate practitioner.

Train on boys!
I think you're confused about the difference between "esoteric" and "silly".

Levitation, and blowing out candles, is silly.

I can teach you Qigong that will make your body drop to the floor in agony.
 

Oily Dragon

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There are Systema masters like George S Pogacich who have beat up former mma fighters.

Master Steve Smith said his teacher was a Daois priest.

i find a lot of these discussions pointless. It often turns into style bashing or e does debating.
You might have missed it, but Dream was promoting/pushing no-touch Chi knockouts, levitation, and other charlatanism.

That has nothing to do with Wing Chun's lack of representation in modern CMA competition fighting.

George S. "I am a SAG actor/Stuntman. I am also one of the first Americans ever to be certified in an elite KGB system." Pogacich?

This guy???

1701668438381.jpeg
 

Oily Dragon

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I just named guys who’ve used it. They aren’t abstract, it’s just that many in the MA community love to look at the worst examples
"Guys who've used it". Some guy claiming secret KGB training, and some other random dude.

You're the dude bringing up the worst examples...there are better examples.

when do they ever discuss guys like the ones I just mentioned, or Adam Chan, Michael VanBeek, Gary Lam, never.
So post their videos. This is part of the problem. If these guys FIGHT, people who train hand to hand combat will be able to tell.
these discussions are pointless, what do they honestly achieve? most of you have your ideas and aren’t going to change them.
They are not pointless. If anything we are at the tip of the spear, dude.
 

drop bear

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It's not a misconception. Wing Chun is one of the least effective martial arts available in 2023, based on the number of capable fighters.

That's largely because of it's limitations, which I blame largely on movies and people getting wrapping up in philosophy of martial arts, rather than bruising, which is vital to southern Shaolin training.

But Chan, and all its influence, does overshadow all martial arts. Don't matter what country. That's a truism. Historically, metaphorically, literally.

So I get where you are going with that "abstract" bit, but unfortunately the part about "the most sandbox open range gung fu" doesn't mesh with my experience.

The part about remote Qigong magic is funny, because once upon a time you couldn't say realistically "I can change the course of the future in a remote room!" but nowadays, of course everyone can.
There also isn't good opportunities for wing chun fighters.
 

Oily Dragon

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There also isn't good opportunities for wing chun fighters.
Wing Chun's entire repertoire can be used in a couple different rulesets like San Shou, Muay Thai. Other CMA don't have a problem there. Wing Chun is noticably absent.

Boxing? There's 20 years of "how to defeat boxing with Wing Chun" videos online. So far the only ones that make sense are Terrible Tim Witherspoons', because he figured out Bong Sau.

Imagine that, an actual boxer training Wing Chun!
 

drop bear

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Wing Chun's entire repertoire can be used in a couple different rulesets like San Shou, Muay Thai. Other CMA don't have a problem there. Wing Chun is noticably absent.

Boxing? There's 20 years of "how to defeat boxing with Wing Chun" videos online. So far the only ones that make sense are Terrible Tim Witherspoons', because he figured out Bong Sau.

Imagine that, an actual boxer training Wing Chun!
Yeah. But if you were a killer wing chun guy. You would have to compete in boxing or kickboxing or whatever to earn money or experiences.

Even teaching. Nobody really cares. You can't even do the seminar circuit.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I just named guys who’ve used it. They aren’t abstract, it’s just that many in the MA community love to look at the worst examples

when do they ever discuss guys like the ones I just mentioned, or Adam Chan, Michael VanBeek, Gary Lam, never.

its always well they aren’t doing real wing Chun, it must always stay in a box

these discussions are pointless, what do they honestly achieve? most of you have your ideas and aren’t going to change them.
I know nothing of WC, so I'm talking in generalities here. When I see an art that has major proponents who used it in their daily work, but it's generally seen as ineffective, I suspect there's a significant difference in how it's trained. Almost any reasonable system can be effective. There are things that can make it more reliable that a system will produce applicable results, and if you take those things away, almost any art can lose fighing effectiveness. If we took kick boxing and removed the heavy bag and sparring, we could still be left with a fun program that helps with fitness and flexibility, but it won't do much to develop fighting skill - Billy Blanks did this to create the Tae Bo workout.

So, conversely, if you put elements into a system (the "art" + the training approach) that foster reliable application, you are more likely to get effective fighting skills.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not really, because if you had to stack up a list of effective Wing Chun combatants over the last 100 years, you'd end up with almost zero
That's a pretty broad statement. If by "effective" you mean "effective at a visible level in high-level competition", I'd agree. Otherwise, I'd shrug this off as hyperbole.
 

Oily Dragon

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That's a pretty broad statement. If by "effective" you mean "effective at a visible level in high-level competition", I'd agree. Otherwise, I'd shrug this off as hyperbole.
Fair enough, I'll narrow it down.

The number of known Wing Chun fighters in the real world today, is much less than the number of Wing Chun fighters in movies, and almost all of those are Ip Man.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yeah. But if you were a killer wing chun guy. You would have to compete in boxing or kickboxing or whatever to earn money or experiences.

Even teaching. Nobody really cares. You can't even do the seminar circuit.
There are a select few Wing Chun-labeled fighters out there doing the purse thing.

Unfortunately they carry this kind of baggage with them, and they are told they're not using Wing Chun when they fight, usually by Wing Chun people who don't.

"Why Wing Chun loses to MMA​

Rules. "

 

Tony Dismukes

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I think Alan Orr's guys do okay in MMA. None of them are at the UFC level, but to be fair the vast majority of MMA gyms don't produce UFC level fighters. If there were a few hundred WC schools that operated like Alan Orr's, then probably a few of them might produce top-level fighters.

Putting aside the question of the theoretical effectiveness of the art, there's also the fact that most WC schools are run by and for hobbyists rather than professional athletes. I don't care how good your art is, you aren't going to be effective in modern high level MMA if you aren't training like a pro athlete. (This applies to lots of arts besides WC as well.)
 

Teapot

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I'm not a Wing Chun guy, but I have also seen Terrible Tim's videos on Wing Chun's Bong Sau in the context of the Philly Shell.

From my perspective, I wouldn't want my arms to be positioned as so (the right image is an old-school way to block jabs):
1701702157980.png


The reason is that in a glove-less (or at least use MMA gloves) environment, a jab can be transitioned into a grab after impact. And in the case of the left image, both guarding arms appear vulnerable to being manipulated at the wrist and/or elbow. I'm thinking of jamming the elbow, cranking the arm, smashing the opponent's elbow in his face, the potential for arm drags, etc....

This isn't just theory, I know people who have tried it against Boxer/Muay Thai; they were fooling around where the pure strikers are generally not used to having their guard manipulated. They fall to the ground. And that's not surprising since it's probably very hard to do in Boxing with giant gloves on, so they're not used to it.

And this is a classical Chinese martial art tactic found in Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Praying Mantis, etc... For example, this is from a Praying Mantis video:
1701703853139.png


Here, it's the classic trick of hitting the opponent's face but the opponent guards his face. That guarding hand is vulnerable when it crosses.... the centerline. Several throwing methods come from this tactic, and there are various ways of manipulating the opponent's guarding hand once it crosses the centerline.
 

Oily Dragon

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I think Alan Orr's guys do okay in MMA. None of them are at the UFC level, but to be fair the vast majority of MMA gyms don't produce UFC level fighters. If there were a few hundred WC schools that operated like Alan Orr's, then probably a few of them might produce top-level fighters.

Putting aside the question of the theoretical effectiveness of the art, there's also the fact that most WC schools are run by and for hobbyists rather than professional athletes. I don't care how good your art is, you aren't going to be effective in modern high level MMA if you aren't training like a pro athlete. (This applies to lots of arts besides WC as well.)
Sure Alan Orr is a common exception. There are others too.

But you just said it though, most WC schools are hobbyist and not very serious. Yet, soo serious when discussing Wing Chun.

A lot of other old school Asian arts don't suffer this issue. Look at Burmese MA. And Muay Thai seems like a perfect ruleset for Wing Chun...kickboxing and clinch fighting!
 

bluepanther

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Has anyone had to use Wing-Chun for self-defense ?

if yes, how effective is it generally speaking ?

I did other more full-contact system before and want to get into Wing-Chun, but I also want to make sure I learn something " new ".
I read so many bad things online about Wing-Chun claiming it is not effective at all.

Maybe someone can enlighten me.
I think there was a Buddhist nun like 300 years ago that used it effectively.
 

Mider

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I know nothing of WC, so I'm talking in generalities here. When I see an art that has major proponents who used it in their daily work, but it's generally seen as ineffective, I suspect there's a significant difference in how it's trained. Almost any reasonable system can be effective. There are things that can make it more reliable that a system will produce applicable results, and if you take those things away, almost any art can lose fighing effectiveness. If we took kick boxing and removed the heavy bag and sparring, we could still be left with a fun program that helps with fitness and flexibility, but it won't do much to develop fighting skill - Billy Blanks did this to create the Tae Bo workout.

So, conversely, if you put elements into a system (the "art" + the training approach) that foster reliable application, you are more likely to get effective fighting skills.
My point is that the worst examples are often used as an example in WC. There are plenty of good teachers who have lineage to Ip Man. I also Dislike how certain channels monetize on trashing arts.

I often see goal post moving. Well karate sucks. What about machida? Well he’s a master, it’s silly.

And I also think the WC community can be an issue in that many aren’t into growing evolving the training
 

Mider

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"Guys who've used it". Some guy claiming secret KGB training, and some other random dude.

You're the dude bringing up the worst examples...there are better examples.


So post their videos. This is part of the problem. If these guys FIGHT, people who train hand to hand combat will be able to tell.

They are not pointless. If anything we are at the tip of the spear, dude.
i answered the post. not my fault you can’t look these guys up, that’s your issue and more excuses. And Pogocich wasn’t in the KGB, he trained under Vasiliv in Canada.

if you were so serious about debates wtf, why wouldn’t you do a quick Google search in these “random guys” or their backgrounds. Again, that’s why I dislike these debates.

I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who can’t even do a quick Google or YouTube search, or says something like oh well WC guys can’t do boxing.

blocked
 
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