Hand and foot arrive at the same time, or foot arrive first and hand arrive later?

[JadeDragon]

With Two section and Three Sectional staffs and Nunchakus, the bottom section starts first and continues the action as it passes the energy from one section to the other; increasing energy as it goes toward the tip.

In the body the first section is the feet stepping and legs, the second section is the body, the third section the hands and arms.

Stepping first before a punch, utilizes these principles.

 

[pdg]

These actions are detailed in Newtonian Physics.

Sorry, but with your descriptions and analogies so far all you've managed to do is demonstrate a massive lack of knowledge on the subject of physics, so name dropping Newton now just makes you look a bit silly.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion - it's turning into playing chess with a pigeon.

 

[dvcochran]

This usually happens because the person stops the momentum and then punches. It's possible to step first and keep much of the momentum, if the person adds it to other mechanics of punching. The easiest way to see this at works is to look at sports like football, lacrosse, and baseball. All of which propel the ball by stepping first then punching

Depending on the type of punch you are doing, you'll need to plant the foot first then punch, Sometimes you'll need to establish the root before the punch in order to prevent the punch from throwing you off balance. Haymakers are a perfect example of this. Haymakers can use forward motion to help "jump start" twisting motion. It's a slower punch and it uses other power generation as well. The good thing is that it is more forgiving, so if your miss the forward timing you can still generate significant force with twisting.

I agree you can make good power by stepping and "setting up" for a punch however you are telegraphing your move. It may not be immediately apparent you are throwing a punch but the footwork shows that something is coming. It is harder not to preempt the step with a haymaker.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I agree you can make good power by stepping and "setting up" for a punch however you are telegraphing your move. It may not be immediately apparent you are throwing a punch but the footwork shows that something is coming. It is harder not to preempt the step with a haymaker.

Not always. My footwork can show that something is coming, if I want it to, or it can not. And I always keep my foot on the ground before I throw, and 'twist' for power. Once the throw is started, it's generally obvious that a punch is coming, but that's true of any punch. The footwork will not (always) give it away.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It may not be immediately apparent you are throwing a punch but the footwork shows that something is coming.

I think awareness of the step get lost in the heat of throwing punches. That and most people don't pay attention to their opponent's footwork. I'm aware of footwork only because I seek to exploit bad footwork and root. But most people don't do this, most people only see the chest up when fighting. Muay Thai and BJJ are probably more aware but other than that. I don't think most people pay attention to if someone is stepping or not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Examples of step first then punch in boxing. You will see that sometimes the step before the punch isn't even in the field of vision. When this happens there is no telegraph even if you are looking for it.

 

[dvcochran]

Examples of step first then punch in boxing. You will see that sometimes the step before the punch isn't even in the field of vision. When this happens there is no telegraph even if you are looking for it.

I was wondering if anyone has ever actually put a stopwatch on the various footwork of punches. Bad form excluded, the difference is likely insignificant. So the question comes down to power? And intent with the footwork? But to narrow the discussion to stay on topic, I feel a punch timed with the step will always be harder than a step and punch if all the other body work is the same.

 

[JadeDragon]

Sorry, but with your descriptions and analogies so far all you've managed to do is demonstrate a massive lack of knowledge on the subject of physics, so name dropping Newton now just makes you look a bit silly.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion - it's turning into playing chess with a pigeon.

Good riddance, I do not waste my time with punks.

​

 

[pdg]

Good riddance, I do not waste my time with punks.

​

I like you, you're funny.

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's Note:

Keep it civil, and on-topic. Some of you are treading close to getting hit with warning points.

 

[JadeDragon]

Well put. Good examples.

Examples of step first then punch in boxing. You will see that sometimes the step before the punch isn't even in the field of vision. When this happens there is no telegraph even if you are looking for it.

 

[Langenschwert]

The idea behind the drop step/falling step/foot hitting after the punch lands is that your whole body is "behind" (I'm sure the physics are different) the punch. It can be very fast (falling at the speed of gravity...) and there is very little telegraph if it's done properly. Some other things can go on, too -- acceleration from the arm and legs propelling the body, tension within the body, and more, to add to that source of power. The power from this sort of punch feels to me like a falling hammer or dropping a rock on your toe... but that's just my description. It's also a VERY committed, almost off balance punch.

Landing before the punch allows you to use various muscle and body movement techniques to "push" or "spring" the punch rather than that gravity effect. It's more telegraphed, because the foot goes in first (but can be deceptive because you can sometimes sneak the foot in...) There are ways to generate the falling energy here, and you are better rooted. You can also "pull" the punch in with the lead leg. The power here feels horizontal and penetrating. You're more balanced to move after the punch.

The foot and fist connecting at the same moment seeks a balance between the two. It can be very explosive... but it requires a lot of split second timing. It can be very explosive when it hits. But it's also a more technical punch because it tends to become a poorly executed version of either of the other approaches.

Understanding the force and physics in a punch is very complicated because you have a lot of things going on, different lever actions, different types of momentum, body linkages... We used to have a member, pstarr (haven't seen him around in forever and a day) who wrote a book or two about it...

Agreed on all counts. The first method accords with George Silver's writings on "True Time" in 1598. Essentially, any attack where the hand precedes the body is true time (and preferred), and any attack where the body precedes the hand is false time (and cautioned against). While designed for weapon combat, they can be applied to boxing as well to a lesser degree. Extreme examples of false time in are seen in strikers who lead with the face. Remember Takanori Gomi?

 

[Touch Of Death]

As long as you're hand doesn't land before you're foot, you're good

Wha?

 

[Touch Of Death]

If your punch is before your step your timing is off and the punch is fully extended so your are essentially falling into the target. Or, you are purposely doing a segmented (arm only) punch which, of course, will be weaker.

I would say your timing is right. Punching before the foot lands, utilizes your body weight behind the punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would say your timing is right. Punching before the foot lands, utilizes your body weight behind the punch.

It's a speed vs. power trade off issue.

If a mosquito flies in front of you, your hand will move out first. Your hand then pull your arm, and your arm then pull your body. Your hand lead your body.

If you push a car, your legs will push on the ground. The counter force then push your legs, go through your body, arm, and reach to your hand. Your body lead your hand.