Ground fighting

[Mr. President]

A significant portion of the criticism of those who challenge Chinese martial arts, is "how are all those fancy moves gonna help you when you're on the ground"?

But I know that Chin Na has various ground applications, and perhaps some styles of Shuai Jiao as well. Are these methods comprehensive enough that they are able to deal with any ground fighter of any other martial art, like Sambo, Greco Roman, Judo, BJJ etc?

 

[Cyriacus]

Whether they are or not, you cant learn how to grapple without grappling. Plenty of folks know how to grapple until they try and grapple with someone who knows how to grapple.

 

[frank raud]

Probably not. The question is not are the Chinese techniques comprehensive enough, it is do they get practiced enough to be of use against a specialist in the grappling game.

 

[clfsean]

The majority of TCMA's don't roll around on the ground if it can be at all helped. Much of that comes from the battlefield notion, you get knocked down, you get dead. SJ is about putting people on the ground. I've not seen much if any of the major SJ styles playing on the ground. Same with QN. It's about locking/tearing/breaking/immobilizing to put somebody on the ground. Again not saying either of these couldn't be used on the ground, but that's not what they're for. The "ground based" stuff I've seen ... Di Tang, Gou Quan... they're not about fighting on the ground. They're about getting up from the ground. In Lama Pai, we have a Di Tang set & from what I've seen of it, it's about getting up not fighting on, or knocking the opponent down so I can get up & stomp on him.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Whether they are or not, you cant learn how to grapple without grappling. Plenty of folks know how to grapple until they try and grapple with someone who knows how to grapple.

This is so true! Absolutely true!!!!

 

[SuitableScroll]

I go with what Bruce Lee said... "If you go to the ground, you need to train harder or find a better teacher." If you are superior in striking, and know how to defend from being taken to the ground, you don't go to ground. Besides, you play to your strengths. You don't kick a kicker. You don't grapple with a grappler.

 

[Cyriacus]

I go with what Bruce Lee said... "If you go to the ground, you need to train harder or find a better teacher." If you are superior in striking, and know how to defend from being taken to the ground, you don't go to ground. Besides, you play to your strengths. You don't kick a kicker. You don't grapple with a grappler.

So if some guy comes up behind you and drags you down so him and his buddies can put you out of commission, i guess you just let them, because you, in your foolishness, need to train harder and find a better teacher. This is just the consequence of your foolishness. I mean, obviously. Because those guys care SO much about your striking skills.

 

[mograph]

I think we have a logical end to this in a non-competition situation:

1. Train so that it is impossible for you to be taken to the ground by anyone.
2. If you can't do that (duh), learn to grapple well enough to escape or well enough to disable your opponent. Then escape.

The confusion may be that in CMA (as is my understanding), choosing to go to the ground or attempting to get a submission is a bad idea. The former should be obvious (you may lose control of the situation and get into trouble), but in the latter case, you opponent could submit ... then knife you when you release him. Also, it would be a bad idea to go to ground when the opponent has friends: even if you get a superior position, they could kick the snot out of you.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think we have a logical end to this in a non-competition situation:

1. Train so that it is impossible for you to be taken to the ground by anyone.
2. If you can't do that (duh), learn to grapple well enough to escape or well enough to disable your opponent. Then escape.

The confusion may be that in CMA (as is my understanding), choosing to go to the ground or attempting to get a submission is a bad idea. The former should be obvious (you may lose control of the situation and get into trouble), but in the latter case, you opponent could submit ... then knife you when you release him. Also, it would be a bad idea to go to ground when the opponent has friends: even if you get a superior position, they could kick the snot out of you.

He can also knife you before you release him. Weapons are pretty handy (handy! haha!)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think we have a logical end to this in a non-competition situation:

1. Train so that it is impossible for you to be taken to the ground by anyone.
2. If you can't do that (duh), learn to grapple well enough to escape or well enough to disable your opponent. Then escape.

The confusion may be that in CMA (as is my understanding), choosing to go to the ground or attempting to get a submission is a bad idea. The former should be obvious (you may lose control of the situation and get into trouble), but in the latter case, you opponent could submit ... then knife you when you release him. Also, it would be a bad idea to go to ground when the opponent has friends: even if you get a superior position, they could kick the snot out of you.

Avoiding the ground in a self-defense situation where possible is probably a good idea in most situations. However you seem to be confused about what a submission really is. Releasing someone unharmed when they submit is what you do in competition or when training with friends. In a self-defense scenario where your opponent might have a knife, you choke your assailant unconscious or break their limbs. There is no tapping out.

 

[SuitableScroll]

If you have good situational awareness, then you shouldn't be snuck up on. And if by chance someone grabs you from behind, I don't know about you, but that's some of the first defenses I learned and practiced so if I was unfortunate enough to be grabbed I could escape it. I'm not saying, necessarily, that you would NEVER go to ground, but that should never be a choice and you should be properly prepared so you are not taken to the ground.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you have good situational awareness, then you shouldn't be snuck up on. And if by chance someone grabs you from behind, I don't know about you, but that's some of the first defenses I learned and practiced so if I was unfortunate enough to be grabbed I could escape it. I'm not saying, necessarily, that you would NEVER go to ground, but that should never be a choice and you should be properly prepared so you are not taken to the ground.

Oh god.

1: "Then you shouldnt be snuck up on". Do you seriously believe that? Do you think that your potential attacker thinks youre stupid? Are you actually literally stupid? No, youre not, right? Then why would you assume that your attacker is. 'Sneaking' up on people is damn easy.
2: Has it never occured to you that theres a defense against everything, and that the person trying to hurt you doesnt give a damn about your training? Has it occured to you that the reason people get hurt is because defense is NOT reliable? If you let your imagination run wild, it almost becomes better to be attacked than it is to attack someone. Think about that for a second. Also, dragging someone down from behind takes roughly one second, or less. Are you telling me your defense against a takedown from behind takes less than a second, including the time itll take for you to figure out whats going on, and identify the correct technique? Because you dont need to match his speed. You need to be faster, and you need to do something that will physically disable him. In less than a second, off balance, being taken down to the ground by an attack you cannot identify in time by a person or persons you cannot see. Right.
3: "I could escape it"? Could is the operative word here. And I could take you down. Do you consider yourself totally incapable of taking someone down from behind because *gasps* theres a possibility of resistance? No? Well then, why do you assume that your attacker doesnt feel the same way.
4: Going to the ground is great for the attacker. Its only bad for you, the poor victim. But learning to grapple is equally useful for learning how to get back up quickly.

Forgive the tone - This just tends to get the point across easier. Sometimes easy is clearer than nice. I can only hope you understand

 

[mograph]

However you seem to be confused about what a submission really is. Releasing someone unharmed when they submit is what you do in competition or when training with friends. In a self-defense scenario where your opponent might have a knife, you choke your assailant unconscious or break their limbs. There is no tapping out.

Fair enough. I was taking my position from a story about a professional grappler who was attacked, turned the tables, then either out of honour or habit, released the attacker when he tapped out. The attacker then pulled a knife and stabbed the grappler.

I now realize that that poor fellow was probably an unusual case.

 

[mograph]

But learning to grapple is equally useful for learning how to get back up quickly.

Yes. I wouldn't bet my life on a perfect ability to avoid all potential situations where I could be taken down. To prepare for that possibility by learning enough grappling to get up quickly just seems prudent.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Fair enough. I was taking my position from a story about a professional grappler who was attacked, turned the tables, then either out of honour or habit, released the attacker when he tapped out. The attacker then pulled a knife and stabbed the grappler.

I now realize that that poor fellow was probably an unusual case.

I could see that happening with someone who only trained for sport and never thought about the actual martial application of his art. That's why when I teach beginners I always make sure they understand the street usage of the technique before worrying about competition aspects.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Being proficient at grappling is more of having allot of hours of training rolling around on the ground just like being able to spar good you need to have allot of hours of sparring logged.

It's why so many experienced TMA people get their butts handed to them against an amateur sport fighter that might only have a couple years of training but 10 times the sparring hours logged in their training.

Traditional arts do have techniques that help defend against going to the ground or how to fight and get back up off the ground but if you haven't practiced them for many hours their near useless against a experiences grappler.

I personally think most TMA people should have a good defensive ground game so they can recover from a take down and get back up to their stand up.

 

[drop bear]

I go with what Bruce Lee said... "If you go to the ground, you need to train harder or find a better teacher." If you are superior in striking, and know how to defend from being taken to the ground, you don't go to ground. Besides, you play to your strengths. You don't kick a kicker. You don't grapple with a grappler.

And don't eyegouge from the bottom.

 

[drop bear]

I think we have a logical end to this in a non-competition situation:

1. Train so that it is impossible for you to be taken to the ground by anyone.
2. If you can't do that (duh), learn to grapple well enough to escape or well enough to disable your opponent. Then escape.

The confusion may be that in CMA (as is my understanding), choosing to go to the ground or attempting to get a submission is a bad idea. The former should be obvious (you may lose control of the situation and get into trouble), but in the latter case, you opponent could submit ... then knife you when you release him. Also, it would be a bad idea to go to ground when the opponent has friends: even if you get a superior position, they could kick the snot out of you.

It is a lot safer and easier to hold a guy if he is on the ground than it is if he is standing. It is also easier to beat on a guy if you are on top of him.

That is the whole point of a dominant position and people need to think really hard before they give up a dominant position in a fight.

If you want to keep the guy in a fifty fifty all the time you need significantly better skills than they have and you run the risk of eating a shot that will end your ability to defend yourself. What I mean by this is you are in front of him trading shots. It is a risky way to fight.

Now you don't need that many shots to end somone if they are on the ground so even a choice of putting the guy down giving him a couple and standing back up is pretty high percentage.

Can you outrace the five guys waiting to get you? Who knows it is a fight its risky. I am sorry but there is nothing that prevents that. The best defence is to have the five guys in your favour.

LiveLeak.com - MMA style street fight (comments)

 

[mograph]

I could only see going to the ground as a percentage play if escape were not an option.

 

[drop bear]

I could only see going to the ground as a percentage play if escape were not an option.

What if they fall over. Do you curb stomp them or let them take the initiative and wait until they get back up?