Grappling

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hi, I'm pretty much a newbie to the MA world Wonder if I can ask a silly question...when you talk about grappling with regards to judo/jujitsu etc what exactly are you talking about? Is it "wrestling" on the ground, similar or totally different?

 

[Aegis]

To my mind, grappling is anything that happens at a range too close for effective striking. For example, picking someone up and throwing them to the ground is grappling, as is putting someone in a standing armlock to control them.

Usually people use groundfighting to denote grappling on the floor, but this may just be in my style.....

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Aegis

To my mind, grappling is anything that happens at a range too close for effective striking. For example, picking someone up and throwing them to the ground is grappling, as is putting someone in a standing armlock to control them.

Usually people use groundfighting to denote grappling on the floor, but this may just be in my style.....

Well, now that changes things! I have been thinking "grappling" was refering to stricktly groundfighting, is that not the case ?

7sm

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

So would grappling then be associated with the grabbing/pulling/pushing of an opponent in order to get him/her into a position where one can execute a throw or lock??

 

[Bod]

I took grappling to mean just about all non striking moves at close range, including locks, pressure point grabs, throws and even sticky blocks.

I also took grappling to include grappling on the ground. Adding striking, getting up, and possibly takedowns would be groundfighting.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Bod

I took grappling to mean just about all non striking moves at close range, including locks, pressure point grabs, throws and even sticky blocks.

I also took grappling to include grappling on the ground. Adding striking, getting up, and possibly takedowns would be groundfighting.

So why is it so many "grapplers" say that traditional systems don't train in grappling? I would think Chin Na would be considered grappling, correct ?

7sm

 

[Aegis]

Well, we don't train in their style of grappling in Jujitsu, but it is still a grappling AND striking art, though our strikes are usually only to set up the grappling.

As I said, my idea of grappling isn't always rolling round on the floor with an opponent. Rather it's about moving your opponent around using your own body weight, their momentum and pain. Then you can hold them still using the pain and body weight (as the momentum has now gone). And this is still grappling.

To grapple an opponent is not to go to the ground with them. A simple shoulder throw from an overhead cosh strike is grappling, as is a back hand strike with the momentum continued round into an armlock before twisting their wrist back through and watching them hit the ground in pain..... :rofl:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Aegis

Well, we don't train in their style of grappling in Jujitsu, but it is still a grappling AND striking art, though our strikes are usually only to set up the grappling.

As I said, my idea of grappling isn't always rolling round on the floor with an opponent. Rather it's about moving your opponent around using your own body weight, their momentum and pain. Then you can hold them still using the pain and body weight (as the momentum has now gone). And this is still grappling.

To grapple an opponent is not to go to the ground with them. A simple shoulder throw from an overhead cosh strike is grappling, as is a back hand strike with the momentum continued round into an armlock before twisting their wrist back through and watching them hit the ground in pain..... :rofl:

Well then I'm lost, because that is a perfect description of my system and everyone is yelling about ho traditional systems have no grappling, or any defence against grapplers.

7sm

 

[tarabos]

hmm...let me put this out there...is it fathomable that there is a difference between "grappling"...and "groundfighting"?

i think so...grappling is more of a universal term, it can be done standing, kneeling, and on the ground, whereas if someone was to say, "i'm going to go do some groundwork or groundfighting, i'd know right away that he or she was going to be doing some type of jujitsu or wrestling. if two young children are messing around with each other in the school yard, doing some type of home-made stand up "see who is the stronger" type of body manipulation, i guess i'd have to call that some sort of stand up grappling.

i think it all comes down to different people's defenitions and takes on which is which and if there really is a difference. it's all just technicalities in the end.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Well then I'm lost, because that is a perfect description of my system and everyone is yelling about ho traditional systems have no grappling, or any defence against grapplers.

7sm

this probably boils down to them trying to say that your system does not do AS MUCH grappling...ON THE GROUND. perhaps they just don't know how to articulate what they want to say. i can't really speak for them...because i don't know who they are.

i can tell by your posts on this board that you have a lot of pride in your system and you are quick to respond to any question of its effectiveness, nothing wrong with that. but sometimes you may read into a comment or situation a little more than it needs to be. you don't do as much groundwork? so what? their system probably doesn't do anywhere near the amount of striking that yours does...

as long as it stays a constructive debate...seems like it's all good to me...but the problem becomes apparent when the debate becomes childish bickering and the "focus on one style vs. cross train in as many as you can" or "if you don't take muay thai there's no way you know how to strike effectively."

 

[Bod]

Grapplers often use the term grappling to mean wrestling, which is only throwing holding and large joint locks. They do this because it makes their sport based art (wrestling) sound more like a real life art.

Grouping joint manipulations, pressure point manipulations, gross balance attacks (such as basic throws) and constraints into the one word 'grappling' is confusing and can become misleading.

This is especially so as throws can be very effective against striking, joint manipulations against throws, and strikes against joint manipulations.

The mistake that especially beginning chin-na practitioners often make is to limit their application of joint manipulations to immediately following a block. One of the best uses is to break the grip being used to precede a throw. Small joint manipulation is fantastic for doing this, which is why UFC has banned these moves.

Pressure point/soft spot manipulations are great against constraints and hold downs, which is why UFC has banned the most effective of these moves.

 

[tarabos]

interesting points bod...