Grappling and Wing Tsun.

[geezer]

you cannot "technique" your way out of a "pressure" situation

Jin, could you explain this a little? I've dropped in and out of this thread, so maybe I just missed something.

 

[Danny T]

...
We have to accept that there may not be any target available for striking , so a better option would be to control their head by placing downward pressure on it so that it slows there forward drive and takes the head out of alignment with the rest of the body which will reduce there ability to generate power.

At the same time you are doing this you also want to be lowering your center of gravity and getting your legs and hips back out of reach , from this control position then you can apply some type of downward strike to the base of his skull or neck.

...
Specific to WC I've worked a lot of manipulating the head (usually with a wu sao, low gahn or kiu sao) and dividing one of the arms simultaneously. We use knee strikes, but only to hack at the legs once you've checked the grappler's gravity/momentum.

That's how we do them too , once we control the head and one of the arms .
Usually a Fook Sau on the back of the head or neck and a low gahn sau to control his closest arm..

Like I said there is a strong grappling element within Wing Chun. Every one of these positions, postures, and controls are grappling moves, positions, postures and controls.

 

[mook jong man]

Like I said there is a strong grappling element within Wing Chun. Every one of these positions, postures, and controls are grappling moves, positions, postures and controls.

That's right mate , the "Three Seeds" are pretty versatile tools.
Fook Sau for example , can be used to hook over an arm to pull it down as we more commonly see, or as we are discussing here in grappling it can be used to wedge it into a grapplers neck and collarbone to stop them getting to your waist or legs.

 

[WC_lun]

The concepts don't change when grappling. The range and base changes, but Wing Chun concepts still work within grappling, even the ground. However, if you never work on these things with people that are good at grappling, you never get a chance to make that part of your Wing Chun effecient, tightening it up. Lots of Wing Chun guys are very good at striking and throwing, because the system is good and they get a chance to train those things a lot. Not as many are competent on the ground. Not because they are bad, just inexerienced in ground work.

 

[Eric_H]

Like I said there is a strong grappling element within Wing Chun. Every one of these positions, postures, and controls are grappling moves, positions, postures and controls.

No, no they are not. It's what we do instead of a wrestling response (ie sprawling).

EDIT:
I should probably add more detail to this:

The way wrestling systems work is to apply body power to the opponent, they either constrict the space inside the wc range or divide the body to apply crashing energy.

Ogoshi (standard hip throw in judo/jujitsu) is a great example of using a crashing body to divide/throw your opponent.
Hapkido outside armbar is a great example of dividing the body to apply body power.
Single leg is a great example of crashing momentum and dividing the body.

We don't apply the leverage from the body (san) we apply it through the bridge (kiu) that's why I say it's not grappling. Additionally we play the body differently (centerline body vs animal style body) which is another big difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If "anti-grappling" exists, it's not WC chi sau.

When a striker fights against a grappler, the striker should try to stay outside of the clinch range. To move like a butterfly and refuse to build any arm bridge. If your grappler opponent can't touch your body, he can't take you down.

The WC chi sau will just give your grapper opponent the clinch range that he needs. It's just like a shark tried to play with an octopus's arms, it won't be to that shark's advantage. You should spend 75% of your effort not to let your opponent to touch your body. You then spend the 25% of your effort to throw punches at his head and hope you can knock him down before he gets a chance to get hold on you.

 

[Eric_H]

If "anti-grappling" exists, it's not WC chi sau.

When a striker fights against a grappler, the striker should try to stay outside of the clinch range. To move like a butterfly and refuse to build any arm bridge. If your grappler opponent can't touch your body, he can't take you down.

The WC chi sau will just give your grapper opponent the clinch range that he needs. It's just like a shark tried to play with an octopus's arm, it won't be to that shark's advantage. You should apend 75% of your effort not to let your opponent to touch your body. You then spend the 25% of your effort to throw punches at his head and hope you can knock him down before he gets a chance to get hold on you.

In part, that's what Kiu Sao is for. We want to maintain control through the single arm because, you are right, two arms gives a grappler easier access to the body.

 

[Steve]

One arm's plenty for a competent grappler. A common... very common, technique is called the arm drag. First part of this video shows pretty clearly how quickly a wrestler will close the distance as well as get to your side:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One arm's plenty for a competent grappler. A common... very common, technique is called the arm drag.

Agree! "Anti-grappling" is very difficult to do if not impossible. If you can "bouncing" your opponent's arms away and "always keep a distance between your arms and your opponent's arm", you may have a chance. When your grappling opponent puts a "hook" on your body, it's pretty hard to remove it.

It's better to learn grappling than to learn anti-grappling.

 

[Danny T]

No, no they are not. It's what we do instead of a wrestling response (ie sprawling).

Sir, I stated 'grappling'. I did not say Wrestling. Wrestling is a form of grappling but not all grappling is wrestling. I do understand control and leverage through the bridge and agree with you on that.

 

[mook jong man]

Wing Chun chi sau and close range striking is anti grappling.
If you can develop sensitivity to not being trapped why would you think that you can't feel someone trying to grab you?
It does not make sense.
If I can deflect a Tan Sau to the side of my neck from a skilled and fast Wing Chun man who doesn't telegraph one iota , then why couldn't I redirect a simple grab for my neck from someone with less speed?

Apart from sensitivity developed by chi sau a constant barrage of 'continuous punch' also makes quite a formidable barrier to anyone trying to clinch.

The centerline is closed off and denies any access to the neck , to get to the neck he has to go around which means his own center line is open and he will be eating punches to the face.

The sheer speed of the 'continuous punch' and the piston like action also make it quite difficult for any grabs or arm drags to be applied , if you manage to even grab one arm you will be pulled in by that arm and struck with the other arm.
It's a bit like trying to walk in and grab a meat grinder.
Did I mention we also have elbows , one of my old instructors could have his elbow inches from a man's sternum and send that man rocketing back with barely a perceptible movement.

Forget trying to clinch against a skilled Wing Chun man , if I was forced to use grappling against a clone of myself , I would stay away from my arms and attack very, very low maybe diving down for the ankles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When a good striker meets a good grapplier, who is going to win? If we have the answer, we won't need "cross training". Onething for sure is if one trains both striking art and grappling art, he will have better chance to deal with those who only trains striking art or grappling art. At least, he can think the same way as the other guy thinks.

 

[yak sao]

When a good striker meets a good grapplier, who is going to win? If we have the answer, we won't need "cross training". Onething for sure is if one trains both striking art and grappling art, he will have better chance to deal with those who only trains striking art or grappling art. At least, he can think the same way as the other guy thinks.

I agree that if you are going to cross train, then that should be the thinking behind it. Know what the other guy is trying to achieve so that you are able to stop it from happening.
Where I tend to disagree with cross training, is when someone tries to stitch together some sort of hybrid, all-inclusive "personal style".
If I were to cross train grappling with the mindset that I would use it to out wrestle my opponent who is also grappling, then I am setting myself up for a fall....no pun intended.
Hitting the mats a few times a week as a sideline is never going to match the person who gives their full attention to grappling training.
Same as boxing. A few boxing sessions a week will never make you able to outbox a boxer who does nothing but focus on boxing.
Better to train with those guys (boxers, grapplers, kickers, etc.) and pick their brain and see what you need to do to make sure you are able to efectively use WC against them
.
I said it so many times, here and in training, WC will not make you immune to going to the ground, but trained correctly, a grappler is going to have a hell of a time getting you there.

 

[hunt1]

I would like to point out to Steve and Wang in particular but everyone else as well. The comments tend to show a lack of understanding and the fault in making general assumptions about wing chun. Not all wing chun is the same. The arm drag video is both very good and is teaching the arm drag in a very similair way to the way it is taught in our Wing Chun. Our wing chun includes many take down to finish methods. We want to get close, up the opponents shirt so to speak.

 

[mook jong man]

The problem with the arm drag as it is shown in the video is that from the outset he is trying to force the guys arm off the centerline , if it was a Wing Chun guy that will result in him 'running palms' and hitting the guy.

The other problem is that due to the triangular nature of the YJKYM stance it is very resistant against trying to be dragged off at an angle , the force tends to go down to the opposite leg which acts like a brace.
One of the benefits of the unique Wing Chun stance.

In my experience in using it in chi sau only beginners will be easily dragged to the side , the experienced will come straight into your sternum with an elbow strike.

A good Wing Chun man will also keep that optimum angle in his arm and will not let it be pulled straight , which allows some of that dragging force to be absorbed by the stance.

It can be done , but you have to be aware that as soon as you drag on his arm , that elbow strike will be on its way in , not only with the power generated from his stance but also the power he has borrowed from you trying to drag him in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A good Wing Chun man will also keep that optimum angle in his arm and will not let it be pulled straight , which allows some of that dragging force to be absorbed by the stance.

The arm dragging is just one form of the arm guidding, it doesn't have to be dragging, it can be pushing as well. When a grappler applies "引(Yin) - arm guiding" that guid your arm into a temporary position that will be to his advantage. It doesn't matter whether he can drag your body toward him, or he can drag his own body toward you. The main purpose is to connect both bodies as one.

We can change the title of this thread to grappling and Taiji, grappling and Karate, grappling and boxing, ... The discussion won't be any different. The striking art is strong in striking. The grappling art is strong in grappling. Trying to discuss whether "引(Yin) -arm guiding" will work in striking environment or not, I don't think we can come up any agreement on that. Whether you can knock your opponent down, or your opponent can take you down, it's your skill against your opponent's skill which has nothing to do with styles.

 

[Steve]

No keyboard, so it will be short. There are a couple of concepts in grappling that are relevant here. First is something called a dead angle. The takedown or sweep is going to work to the direction where your base is weak, not strong. Regardless of how you're oriented, there is an angle where your base is compromised.

Second is a general concept that if I need to get to your side, I won't move you. Rather, I will block you from turning and move myself. I might not be able to pull you to my side, but I can move to yours while keeping you from recovering. That's the key to the arm drag, for example. If you look again at the video, he's not pulling. He clears the arm and quickly moves in to fill the void, only using the tricep t the very last moment. So, the goal isn't to pull you off balance with an arm drag. The goal is to move to your side and prevent you from recovering. And from your side, there are a number of things to do.

And to be clear, I don't allege to know the first thing about wing chun, but I know a little about the mechanics of grappling. That's what I'm speaking to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[geezer]

...if I need to get to your side, I won't move you. Rather, I will block you from turning and move myself. I might not be able to pull you to my side, but I can move to yours while keeping you from recovering...

And to be clear, I don't allege to know the first thing about wing chun, but I know a little about the mechanics of grappling. That's what I'm speaking to.

Maybe you don't know WC, Steve, but it's a great point. People who do know Wing Chun should be very familiar with this concept. For example, you don't move the Wooden Dummy. You move around it.

 

[mook jong man]

There is a thing in Wing Chun called mentally 'projecting' or 'focussing' force to the centerline.
This is always switched on , which means no matter what position you go to they will always be going for your centerline.
Whether you move them or you try to get to the side is irrelevant they will always be trying to face you , it is a basic of the system and one of the reasons we use pivoting.

The point is Wing Chun people are very used to having someone trying to manipulate their arms in chi sau , this is what we do.
You could argue that chi sau is a type of grappling , it is grappling with the opponents arms so that I can get them out of the way and hit him.

By the time someone has logged a few thousand hours in chi sau they will have experienced every type of force imaginable on their arms , from being latched , pulled , dragged , pushed in a myriad of directions.

That is what chi sau is for , it is learning how to deal with the various types of forces without having your stance destabilized and being sure to have your body correctly orientated to your opponents body at all times whether he moves or not.

 

[mook jong man]

No keyboard, so it will be short. There are a couple of concepts in grappling that are relevant here. First is something called a dead angle. The takedown or sweep is going to work to the direction where your base is weak, not strong. Regardless of how you're oriented, there is an angle where your base is compromised.

Second is a general concept that if I need to get to your side, I won't move you. Rather, I will block you from turning and move myself. I might not be able to pull you to my side, but I can move to yours while keeping you from recovering. That's the key to the arm drag, for example. If you look again at the video, he's not pulling. He clears the arm and quickly moves in to fill the void, only using the tricep t the very last moment. So, the goal isn't to pull you off balance with an arm drag. The goal is to move to your side and prevent you from recovering. And from your side, there are a number of things to do.

And to be clear, I don't allege to know the first thing about wing chun, but I know a little about the mechanics of grappling. That's what I'm speaking to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The way Wing Chun works is that it tends to nip things in the bud so to speak , when the attack is still in it's infancy.
The arm drag is a great technique and I use variations of it in some of my knife defence stuff.

But the way he initiates it means that he will immediately be hit , because he is trying to clear the arm away from the centerline.

Wing Chun guys are like a baby with a toy , it's my centerline mine mine mine and your not having it.
So with a simple flip of the wrist he will go around that arm that's trying to clear and hit the guy , it is a technique called running palms.

On very skilled practitioners you maybe not able to move there arm at all off the center line , their force and focus can be that great.
Because to us if we allow our arms to deviate off the centerline it can be more costly than just having your arm captured , it can mean having various parts of your neck attacked which is not very pleasant.