GrandMaster Steve? Who qualifies as an authentic Grandmaster?

[lklawson]

We don’t need to set it back 150 years, I have been stabbed twice, once with a bottle and once with a knife. I’m not making up some bs story about my imaginary fights.

Then you should know better then to "not believe" in "fighting words." Because they seem to believe in you (and want to kill you).

 

[lklawson]

Well, this has been fun. I'm gonna go enjoy my weekend now. Planning on going to the Ren Fest tomorrow. It's silly but fun. Sometimes, for entertainment, I'll go hang out as the booths selling swords and listen to the customers and sales people talk about them as fighting tools.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, this has been fun. I'm gonna go enjoy my weekend now. Planning on going to the Ren Fest tomorrow. It's silly but fun. Sometimes, for entertainment, I'll go hang out as the booths selling swords and listen to the customers and sales people talk about them as fighting tools.

Sounds fun. Have a great weekend. Thank you for the spirited debate.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think that I can see it any way I want. I think that if you have to psych yourself up then you should train harder. I think that if you need a tool to psych me out then you doubt your ability to defeat me with pure skill. I think that if you depend on that rather than your pure skill you lack a certain moral quality. It makes you less. You lower yourself. A pity that you can’t see that. Maybe its your myopia.

If we're talking about sports, it's not against the rules. Your opponent is just as capable of speaking as you are, so it's fair.

If we're talking about a real fight, then fairness shouldn't even be a thought. You do whatever you have to in order to win.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I didn't say that I need to do it, I said it's a tool that some people can use.


Why on earth would someone give up a tool that could help them? That's silly. Psychological Warfare and "psyops" are standard fare and I'm amazed that you think they're somehow corrupt.


"Moral quality" doesn't win fights and doesn't keep a face from getting beaten in. Good tools, tactics, strategy, and training do that. And sometimes, in some cases, "trash talk" can be a tool to be used.


Well, if making use of a tool is "lowering," if winning the fight, if surviving is "myopic" then OK.

You know what you call the morally superior dead guy? Dead.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If we're talking about sports, it's not against the rules. Your opponent is just as capable of speaking as you are, so it's fair.

If we're talking about a real fight, then fairness shouldn't even be a thought. You do whatever you have to in order to win.

I agree that all war is deception. I agree that anything is fair in a fight. I also believe that one can strive to be better and moral and evolved in spite of those things. I believe that having the choice is a product of martial arts training. I am of the opinion that if it’s only about fighting then we miss the point of training to have the option. I don’t understand what’s wrong with that statement? We all get old, we all become frail. At some point, what we gain physically goes away, what is left? If it was only about fighting then what will I have gained at the later decades of life?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If we're talking about sports, it's not against the rules. Your opponent is just as capable of speaking as you are, so it's fair.

If we're talking about a real fight, then fairness shouldn't even be a thought. You do whatever you have to in order to win.

I’m not speaking to whether it’s fair. I couldn’t care less how much an opponent or adversary has to say. That’s part of my point.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I’m not speaking to whether it’s fair. I couldn’t care less how much an opponent or adversary has to say. That’s part of my point.

You just contradicted yourself. All this time today, you've been criticizing the characters of people who engage in trash talk. Now you don't care?

 

[Steve]

And a master of XYZ martial art is any different?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

In my opinion, not much different, though the skillset is much more clearly defined. When you have a ninja who purports to be a master in self defense, there is a bit of a disconnect. He may be a master in ninjutsu, but that doesn't mean he can fight or is a master of self defense.

This would be akin to a master electrician presuming to speak with authority on plumbing. Sure, they're both trades associated with construction, but being a master electrician doesn't magically convey authority in other connected fields.

 

[Steve]

Fine, there are only 4 possible outcomes.

... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope! Amongst our possible outcomes are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You just contradicted yourself. All this time today, you've been criticizing the characters of people who engage in trash talk. Now you don't care?

I’m saying I am not going to be goaded or psyched out by fighting words. I don’t care what they say to me or about me. I do find the act to be lacking in character. I wonder if you really understand where I’m coming from here? This is really just a simple thing. If you don’t agree, that’s ok with me. If you want to trash talk me, feel free. I’m making a comment about how it’s not adding anything positive in my opinion. I don’t feel that I need to react with violence to words. Would you kick a barking dog? Are you afraid of barking dogs? Do you feel like saying mean things back to the barking dog will have a Positive effect?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You just contradicted yourself. All this time today, you've been criticizing the characters of people who engage in trash talk. Now you don't care?

If you want to do that then do it. I don’t care, but I also will judge you on your lack of moral character. I will also assume you lack the ability or the courage to back it up. Of course you are welcome to do as you please, you may also chew with your mouth open and talk while you eat.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I’m saying I am not going to be goaded or psyched out by fighting words. I don’t care what they say to me or about me. I do find the act to be lacking in character. I wonder if you really understand where I’m coming from here? This is really just a simple thing. If you don’t agree, that’s ok with me. If you want to trash talk me, feel free. I’m making a comment about how it’s not adding anything positive in my opinion. I don’t feel that I need to react with violence to words. Would you kick a barking dog? Are you afraid of barking dogs? Do you feel like saying mean things back to the barking dog will have a Positive effect?

Of course I forgot to mention that dogs don’t have morals, so I won’t judge the dog.

 

[WaterGal]

In the context of skilled trades, being qualified as a Master is much broader than . 'modifying' something. The time investment, education required, and work history is what enables the title.
To me, that is very parallel to being called a Master in martial arts.

I am still trying to understand the "Master Bill" reference. Are you saying Bill is a hack?
Or that Bill, the master instructor is more akin to the supervisor title and Master Bill more honorific (Sa Bum Nim vs. Kwan Jang Nim)?

The latter. I think the term "master instructor" implies that one has put many years of work into learning to be an instructor, while calling someone "master [name]" is an honorific that's often used for either some kind of spiritual guru, or historically for a person who owned slaves. So I think it's understandable that people feel uncomfortable with it.

 

[WaterGal]

And a master of XYZ martial art is any different?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I've never heard a master electrician or master plumber be addressed as "Master So-and-So".

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've never heard a master electrician or master plumber be addressed as "Master So-and-So".

People will certainly say "I am a Master Electrician" without there being any expectation that you'll call them "Master Volt". This is, I think, a relatively new thing. There have certainly been times in our history when a Master Carpenter would have expected to be called "Master Nailer".

 

[ThatOneCanadian]

I'm gonna add to this discussion and say that anyone can call themselves a professional, and anyone who actually is a professional at something isn't necessarily a competent human being. Someone calling themselves a Grandmaster is not just a completely subjective thing but even if for whatever reason they have achieved Yoda levels of competency in their art, they are still prone to mistakes. Look at John C. Kim, a skilled, widely-heralded martial artist who ended up being a fraud. If you wanna go beyond martial arts, look at Elizabeth Holmes, a highly-educated individual who ended up being probably the most incompetent, dim-witted psychological manipulator in human history. Despite pretending to be a high authority in her field of study, she barely got anywhere before being called out for her rubbish.

This is why I don't like the title "Grandmaster"; it's a pompous, narcissistic way that an ordinary person will use to try to assert themselves above others. The only way that I will respect a highly-proficient individual is if they are humble, doing away with these ridiculous titles, and instead show competency through their actions. The moment someone tries to pull a Snoke on me and refer to themselves as Supreme Grandmaster Ruler Overlord Commander-in-Chief Admiral General Deluxe is the moment I refuse to put any faith or respect in them or anything that they say.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't have to be humble to be good at what you do, and that includes practicing and teaching martial arts. With utterances such as "I am the greatest!" and "Float like a butterfly; sting like a bee," Muhammad Ali wasn't particularly humble. The man had his own cartoon for cry'n out loud. But he was freaking good.

But being humble usually makes it nicer for the students.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I’d go so far as to say he was a master boxer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm gonna add to this discussion and say that anyone can call themselves a professional, and anyone who actually is a professional at something isn't necessarily a competent human being. Someone calling themselves a Grandmaster is not just a completely subjective thing but even if for whatever reason they have achieved Yoda levels of competency in their art, they are still prone to mistakes. Look at John C. Kim, a skilled, widely-heralded martial artist who ended up being a fraud. If you wanna go beyond martial arts, look at Elizabeth Holmes, a highly-educated individual who ended up being probably the most incompetent, dim-witted psychological manipulator in human history. Despite pretending to be a high authority in her field of study, she barely got anywhere before being called out for her rubbish.

This is why I don't like the title "Grandmaster"; it's a pompous, narcissistic way that an ordinary person will use to try to assert themselves above others. The only way that I will respect a highly-proficient individual is if they are humble, doing away with these ridiculous titles, and instead show competency through their actions. The moment someone tries to pull a Snoke on me and refer to themselves as Supreme Grandmaster Ruler Overlord Commander-in-Chief Admiral General Deluxe is the moment I refuse to put any faith or respect in them or anything that they say.

A lot of overstated points in that.

 

[ThatOneCanadian]

A lot of overstated points in that.

Consider it a passionate rant.