Gracie Jiu Jitsu Vs Other Arts

[PhotonGuy]

The difference is BJJ actually beat up a bunch of guys as part of that pitch.

Yes, when fighting under their rules. When it comes to who can beat up who you have to ask, what kind of fight are we talking about?

 

[PhotonGuy]

One year of GBJJ?
Probably not.
One year of MMA?
Maybe.

Gracie BJJ as I witnessed in the early UFC’s was weak on strikes and kicks and relied heavily on taking their opponent to the ground where they were uncomfortable.
I don’t think a one year practitioner in GBJJ would have a chance of taking me to the ground unless they hit me with a full out low-level run which would leave them exposed.
I’d give them a 25% chance of winning, at best.

A one year MMA trainee would have a much better chance since it’s essentially BJJ plus boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, clinch fighting, etc.
I’d put their chances at 49% of winning.

The way I see it, the main weakness of MMA is that while its very broad and covers just about everything, the tradeoff is that it doesn't really focus on anything, so you become so so at everything without being really excellent at anything. You end up being a mile wide and an inch deep.

 

[BorntoRaiseHell]

I laugh when I meet people & they say "I do BJJ" like it's something special
Ground fighting is ok in a dojo but............

 

[gspell68]

The way I see it, the main weakness of MMA is that while its very broad and covers just about everything, the tradeoff is that it doesn't really focus on anything, so you become so so at everything without being really excellent at anything. You end up being a mile wide and an inch deep.

Exactly!
The old Asian proverb of, “The man who chases two rabbits catches neither,” applies when you start cross training karate with judo with aikido with kendo with iaido.

 

[drop bear123 62]

Yes, when fighting under their rules. When it comes to who can beat up who you have to ask, what kind of fight are we talking about?

They have probably done that under the most rule sets. And the most open rule sets.

Especially back in the Vale Tudo days

 

[dunc]

The vast majority of arts don't have any meaningful ground work so perhaps the questions should be
1 - Is it easier to execute on the strategy of: get hold of an opponent and take them to the ground vs other arts' strategies?
2 - What ruleset or scenarios are you most interested in and does (1) above make sense in that context?

I think the answer to 1 is clearly proven to be Yes in the context of 121 fights with relatively few rules and no weapons
BJJ (& MMA) specialise in this strategy/method so it would seem to give them a fundamental advantage in that context

Also worth noting that whilst it's not 100% true in practice BJJ is often defined as including: Gi JJ, no-gi JJ (incl wrestling etc), MMA and GJJ (aka self defence)

 

[Tony Dismukes122 18]

The way I see it, the main weakness of MMA is that while its very broad and covers just about everything, the tradeoff is that it doesn't really focus on anything, so you become so so at everything without being really excellent at anything. You end up being a mile wide and an inch deep.

Yeah, no. This illustrates a profound misunderstanding of MMA.

Firstly, the idea that MMA fighters aren't excellent at anything is laughable. There are very few martial artists on the planet who understand striking on the level of someone like Israel Adesanya or who understand how to take down and control strikers like Khabib Nurmagomedov.

Secondly, MMA fighters don't train everything. They train to cover the aspects of unarmed fighting which come up in MMA competition (stand up striking, clinching, takedowns and takedown defense both in the open and against a wall, controlling and escaping positions on the ground, ground-n-pound, defending ground-n-pound, and submissions.

Since that's a fair amount to get good at, fighters generally focus their training on the highest percentage techniques in each category and work to get as good as possible with those fundamentals. You'll find a few fighters who will spend the work to become effective at some niche moves like a wheel kick, but the majority stick to polishing the most reliable moves. Beyond that, most fighters develop their own personal specializations and focus on developing those to the highest level, whether that be counter-striking, takedowns against the cage, aggressive punching, or what have you.

Things you typically won't find in an MMA class: weapons training, standing wrist locks, grappling with the gi (which takes out a lot of techniques from BJJ, Judo, and Sambo), kata, grappling moves which don't include protection from strikes (which takes out more BJJ, Judo, and wrestling), a lot of the fancier kicks, a lot of the fancier submissions, etc, etc.

 

[Buka38 13]

If BJJ was the best art everybody would be doing it.

I think the art a person trains in is usually based on what’s available to them, and to the schedule of classes aligning with their free time.

Especially for first time students.

 

[Xue Sheng116 34]

I think the art a person trains in is usually based on what’s available to them, and to the schedule of classes aligning with their free time.

Especially for first time students.

Also personal preference, what fits them best

 

[Kung Fu Wang124 154]

fighters generally focus their training on the highest percentage techniques in each category ...

I always think "Front cut - push your opponent's upper body with your hand and pull his leading leg with your leg. Let your hand to do your hand's job and let your leg to do your leg's job" is the easiest and most nature take down when striking is allowed. But so far, I haven't seen many MMA guys use this move yet. I don't know why?

"Front cut" can be seen in the following 4 different MA styles. It's so funny that when many different MA styles doing the same move, they all look the same.

JKD (1.27 - 1.36):

Baji (15.35 - 15.55):

Praying mantis:

Combat SC:

 

[Tony Dismukes122 18]

I always think "Front cut - push your opponent's upper body with your hand and pull his leading leg with your leg. Let your hand to do your hand's job and let your leg to do your leg's job" is the easiest and most nature take down when striking is allowed. But so far, I haven't seen many MMA guys use this move yet. I don't know why?

"Front cut" can be seen in the following 4 different MA styles. It's so funny that when many different MA styles doing the same move, they all look the same.

You see it occasionally in MMA. But it’s not the easiest move to hit on someone who has good structure and footwork. It’s easier in jacketed grappling systems like Judo, Sambo, and Shuai Jiao where you can grab the jacket for control and don’t have to worry about getting punched in the face.

Here’s some examples of successful application in MMA:

 

[HighKick]

You see it occasionally in MMA. But it’s not the easiest move to hit on someone who has good structure and footwork. It’s easier in jacketed grappling systems like Judo, Sambo, and Shuai Jiao where you can grab the jacket for control and don’t have to worry about getting punched in the face.

Here’s some examples of successful application in MMA:

That last clip is fantastic. About as real world as it gets.

 

[windwalker099124 154]

Back in the day

 

[PhotonGuy]

They have probably done that under the most rule sets. And the most open rule sets.

Especially back in the Vale Tudo days

Not always, Benny Urquidez said he would fight Rorion Gracie under rules that whenever they got into a clinch the referee would pull them apart and Rorion said no he's not a kickboxer so he wouldn't fight under such rules.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah, no. This illustrates a profound misunderstanding of MMA.

Firstly, the idea that MMA fighters aren't excellent at anything is laughable. There are very few martial artists on the planet who understand striking on the level of someone like Israel Adesanya

So that's one exception and I don't know all about Adesanya's background but has he trained in other arts? Maybe he's done some striking based arts in addition to MMA.

or who understand how to take down and control strikers like Khabib Nurmagomedov.

The Gracies excel at that.

Secondly, MMA fighters don't train everything. They train to cover the aspects of unarmed fighting which come up in MMA competition (stand up striking, clinching, takedowns and takedown defense both in the open and against a wall, controlling and escaping positions on the ground, ground-n-pound, defending ground-n-pound, and submissions.

Since that's a fair amount to get good at, fighters generally focus their training on the highest percentage techniques in each category and work to get as good as possible with those fundamentals. You'll find a few fighters who will spend the work to become effective at some niche moves like a wheel kick, but the majority stick to polishing the most reliable moves. Beyond that, most fighters develop their own personal specializations and focus on developing those to the highest level, whether that be counter-striking, takedowns against the cage, aggressive punching, or what have you.

Things you typically won't find in an MMA class: weapons training, standing wrist locks, grappling with the gi (which takes out a lot of techniques from BJJ, Judo, and Sambo), kata, grappling moves which don't include protection from strikes (which takes out more BJJ, Judo, and wrestling), a lot of the fancier kicks, a lot of the fancier submissions, etc, etc.

Im going to say the same thing about MMA that I said about BJJ or that I would say about any art, if MMA was the best, most effective art everybody would be doing it.

 

[Haruhiko]

It's also possible for someone with 20 years of experience in (insert name of any martial art here) to be beaten by someone with no training in any martial art at all.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think the art a person trains in is usually based on what’s available to them, and to the schedule of classes aligning with their free time.

Especially for first time students.

If there was an art that everybody wanted to do, such a demand would result in the art being made more available.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Also personal preference, what fits them best

Which just goes further to prove my point that there is no one best art that beats all other arts. What art works best depends on the person.

 

[Xue Sheng116 34]

Which just goes further to prove my point that there is no one best art that beats all other arts. What art works best depends on the person.

Wow... we actually agree on something

 

[PhotonGuy]

The vast majority of arts don't have any meaningful ground work so perhaps the questions should be
1 - Is it easier to execute on the strategy of: get hold of an opponent and take them to the ground vs other arts' strategies?
2 - What ruleset or scenarios are you most interested in and does (1) above make sense in that context?

I think the answer to 1 is clearly proven to be Yes in the context of 121 fights with relatively few rules and no weapons
BJJ (& MMA) specialise in this strategy/method so it would seem to give them a fundamental advantage in that context

Also worth noting that whilst it's not 100% true in practice BJJ is often defined as including: Gi JJ, no-gi JJ (incl wrestling etc), MMA and GJJ (aka self defence)

Its not a matter of having fewer rules, its a matter of exactly what the rules are.