Geometry

[chufeng]

I asked this question on our web site...
it will be interesting to see what answers I get here...

What is the significance of the circle, the triangle, and the square within your martial art?

(Yes, I borrowed the idea from Aikido, but it's still relevant)

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

:shrug: I'm not a personal supporter of an art having one specified idea, but again, it depends on the person. Something like hsing-yi, is not suitable for everyone. I personally like to circle in wrestling and boxing, and sometimes I like to go straight in. It depends on the opponent. I like to view it as there is no emphasis on any one shape.

And by circling, I mean at the right moment. I've seen so many beginner boxers who do fancy footwork and do all this circling back and forth, and use footwork in all directions, and do zig-zags and other weird contortions. They usually just tire themselves out.

 

[chufeng]

OK...but look beyond the surface of the question...
It's not just footwork or strategy...

I've seen your other posts and I know you can dig deeper.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[theletch1]

OK let a newbie take a crack at a couple of them.

The circle: Denotes the continuous revolution of all things having neither beginning nor end, each action leads to the next action and the next.

The triangle: Denotes the threefold path of martial arts. Mind, Body and Spirit. All three sides of the triangle must be in balance for the artist to be one with the art. Meaning that the true artist must train all three aspects.

The square: ummmm..... it's a dance in West Virginia?

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by theletch1


The square: ummmm..... it's a dance in West Virginia?

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

LOL! :rofl: :rofl:

 

[chufeng]

Good answer, Theletch1...

There's more to both the circle and triangle...but you've gone beyond the obvious...

Anyone care to take a stab at the square?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Aegis]

Nothing to do with either of the arts I train in, but here's an idea for the square:

There is more than one method to get from one point to another (say, from you standing facing an opponent to you walking home uninjured). The two methods may seem totally different to begin with, but will eventually achieve the same goal...

Or some other intelligent sounding carp...

 

[chufeng]

Well, I'm not exactly sure what the IQ of a Koi has to do with this, but...

...an interesting view of the square...one I hadn't thought about before...nice.

anyone else?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[tshadowchaser]

not sure if this qualifies but you do a basic hip throw and draw a line on the floor from foot posistion from begining to end they seem to have a shape simular to a square.
Also to combined triangles give you a square when moveing forward,sideways, and back,and sideways.
both the square and the triangle give you the circle when moved enough.
all three are ways a body may move to preform different tasks and sometimes the same task. ( atgain the hip throw)

 

[Aegis]

Thinking about it, circles are quite a common occurence in both Judo and Jujutsu. Lots of techniques are made up of lots of circles: circling the arms, circling the opponent, circling stance...

On the other hand there's also the "grab and fling" set of techniques which don't entirely match up with this. But hey.

We quite often land in the shape of a triangle for breakfalling purposes... seems to be quite a stable landing position.

 

[chufeng]

Excellent ideas...but there's more...keep posting...

Go beyond strategy and technique...OR go to the heart of your art.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Cliarlaoch]

Chufeng, are you referring to the metaphysics of the arts, perhaps?

I'm guessing here, but:

Circle: the journey of understanding the nature of the art and oneself via the art's meditative and self-reflective nature. It is full circle, and returns in on itself, since one begins and ends the process with oneself. Could be wrong.

Square: Not sure, really. Never encountered it in any of my arts yet. Sorry.

Triangle: Phallic symbol of some sort? (Sorry, couldn't resist). Seriously, the interrelation of mind, body, and soul, perhaps? Another guess. Makes sense to me, since all three are developed in a Martial Art, I believe. Could be wrong.

Feel free to correct me Chufeng, I'm just trying to hazard a guess!

 

[chufeng]

I'm just trying to hazard a guess!

...and a fine guess it was...that is the whole point of this thread...
the physical art can be learned by a well trained monkey...BUT the spirit of the art lies within the soul of each human that steps on the path...each shape represents an aspect of your art, from the human perspective...it can be superficial...but it can also go very deep...

Cliarlaoch, I am not blowing you off...but I want to see more responses before I share a few insights...and mind you, when I do, there will be plenty who have comment...and that's OK, too...
No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

Well, then there's direct lines.

Straight, direct, simple. No wasted motions, no wasted energy, easy to perform, and they are the fastest. The fastest way to get to point B from A is a straight line.

Circle is when your path is deterred. When the guy's position is a certain way, you might have to uppercut, or hook. Some times, you might have to spin to get more power. But the real use for a circle comes when you are locked, or when you're both on the ground. When you're wrists are locked, a circle should at least give you the advantage, unless your opponent had very powerful tentacles. And grappling on the ground. Going in a circle gives you better angles.

 

[chufeng]

Martial Artist,

You are still stuck on the strategy...and there's nothing wrong with that, at all...you've expanded on your original answer...obviously put some thought into it...

Can you go beyond the physical, for a moment, and look at the essence of your art? That is where the techniques come from...

The techniques of any art reflect the heart of the system...look to the heart and discover that which has been before your eyes from the very beginning...

I know it seems difficult...but when you see it, you realize how easy it really is.

(and NO, I'm not just messing with you...)

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

Line - Path of an arrow. Korea really emphasized archery and still does today, with how many gold medals and how many medal sweeps. Path of an arrow is straight. Meaning, you don't attack straight, but everything is simple and direct. Everything falls in a straight line when there are no outside forces. A ball drops straight down.

Circle represents a never-ending cycle.

Square - I think I heard something on the four corners

When something doesn't work, go around it. Like water, on how it moves around the rock and meets back.

There are thousands of these, and IMO, are not really of much importance. What's important is combat, not the philosophical beginnings or how what originated, because most have the same idea, no matter where the people were from. I think Bruce Lee put it perfectly, but then again, it is interesting to know where things came about.

 

[chufeng]

Martial Artist,

Just when you show the promise of an answer, you go and shoot it down with your "it only counts on the battlefield stuff.

Tell that to Musashi...

Gosh, that very last post was promising...but then you pissed on it.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Cliarlaoch]

Originally posted by chufeng
[BCliarlaoch, I am not blowing you off...but I want to see more responses before I share a few insights...and mind you, when I do, there will be plenty who have comment...and that's OK, too...
No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do.

:asian:
chufeng [/B]

No worries, Chufeng. I will eagerly await your responses when they come. :asian:


"No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do"

So does that mean I can't pass go or collect the $200 dollars to buy the Shaolin Temple property up and finally start putting up some buildings on my turf? Darn... no big payoffs for Cliarlaoch. Drat.

(Mind me not. I am an oddball)

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
There are thousands of these, and IMO, are not really of much importance. What's important is combat, not the philosophical beginnings or how what originated, because most have the same idea, no matter where the people were from.

Interesting to note that the strictly combat oriented volume of wisdom written by Sun Tzu is couched in philosophical terms and images... Same with the Book of Five Rings.

Philosophical images are what stir the mind and heart to action. By watching the movement of animals, many combat strategies have been devised. Certainly, the same strategies could well have been developed without the inspiration of the animal, but then again...?

Perhaps it has been overdone with cheap, sell-out schools using cliche images to advertise their art to the ignorant. Maybe there are too many self-styled Kwai Chang Caines wandering the mini-malls trying to recruit their own neo-Shaolin disciples. Whatever.

The philosophical underpinings of all martial arts should not be disposed of hurriedly. Because you don't see a use for them now doesn't mean you won't see a use for them later. It is a case of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Interesting to note that the strictly combat oriented volume of wisdom written by Sun Tzu is couched in philosophical terms and images... Same with the Book of Five Rings.

Philosophical images are what stir the mind and heart to action. By watching the movement of animals, many combat strategies have been devised. Certainly, the same strategies could well have been developed without the inspiration of the animal, but then again...?

Perhaps it has been overdone with cheap, sell-out schools using cliche images to advertise their art to the ignorant. Maybe there are too many self-styled Kwai Chang Caines wandering the mini-malls trying to recruit their own neo-Shaolin disciples. Whatever.

The philosophical underpinings of all martial arts should not be disposed of hurriedly. Because you don't see a use for them now doesn't mean you won't see a use for them later. It is a case of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

What I'm saying is that the most important part of a martial art for combat is where it got some of its ideas from. Look at wing chun, there are a lot of stories but one story that's accepted as truth, were Ng Mui, along with the other elders, created a system. It is said she got the ideas from a battle she witnessed between a snake and a crane. Or, look at boxing. Nobody knows really anything about boxing, other than it was very popular in Greece. Some newer ideas in boxing, have little geometric essence. Ali never thought of shapes when he popularized some of his techniques. I'm saying that knowing the genesis of geometric principles is not important for combat. If you truly understand the principles, then I could see why, but most people know rather than understand.