General FMA questions

[K831]

I have some general questions about FMA. I have been involved in many styles of martial arts, but predominately varying types of Kenpo, with the focus the last few years being on American Kenpo.
I have studied some FMA for brief periods, but in those instances, not much discussion happened regarding the background, lineage, history etc. I liked a lot of what I learned, and have often wanted to integrate some type of FMA into my training again. I can only make it to my Kenpo school once, maybe twice a week.
That notion has led me to pay attention to posts, threads, schools etc that are on the subject of or teaching various FMA’s.
That has caused me to realize that I lack much by way of clarity on the history and differences of the various types of FMA’s out there.
Below is a bullet-point list of what I understand of FMA. I am hoping to gain a little context and background from you all.
Thanks,

FMA
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Indigenous to the Philippines. No, or very little, outside influence from other arts. Unique in that beginners start with weapons in conjunction with empty hand techniques, as weapons techniques are seen as simply an extension of the hand. Much of the motion/mechanics/tactics are based on the triangle (in terms of footwork, angles of entry etc)
Types;


-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Eskrima/Kali/Arnis – these all seem to be different words that describe the same thing; A Filipino art teaching sticks, blades,weapons. I assume the different terms are used to describe arts from a different lineage, or region? How different are each of these and where do the different terms come from? Is a person at an Arnis or Eskrima school learning the same basic art as a person at a Kali school?

-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Panantukan – Empty Hand Filipino techniques. This seems to be basically, Filipino kick boxing. My question here is; is this a separate style? Or is this the word used to describe the empty hand techniques you would learn in any Eskrima/Kali/Arnis class?

-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Suntukan – Filipino boxing (seems like dirty boxing basically. Boxing with the addition of back-knuckles, hammer fists and some elbows.) Is this a separate art? Or again, is this simply a word to described the “hands” portion of Panantukan?

-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Balintawak- I don’t know what this is. Seems to be a “regional” type of Eskrima/Kali/Arnis. The videos I have seen of stick work from Balintawak used the butt of the stick more, and seemed to favor a closer range of combat than that of other FMA vids I have seen. Does this style have much by way of empty hand work? Do they utilize kicks at all?

-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Any grappling counterpart to the FMA’s?

In looking to integrate some FMA into my training, I want to know what I am looking at, and determine what region/lineage/style would likely fit my needs better.
I have seen some Panantukan videos that were really impressive, as well as some pretty neat Suntukan videos, but you don’t see schools for these two anywhere.
I also really liked the Balintawak clips I saw, however, I don’t know much about it. I have been told however that there is a Balintawak teacher in the Phoenix area, so I am interested.
Some Kali/Eskrima/Arnis I have seen I really liked, others , not so much. I don’t know what (region/lineage/individual practitioner) is making the difference.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sikaran: a general term for the use of the feet in fighting
A few systems use this as their base and use hands and weapons secondly or not at all.

 

[K831]

Interesting. I am sure there are many more subsets I am not aware of!

NOTE: since my post above I have had better luck with the search function. I understand better now where Balintawak lands in all of this.

 

[Blindside]

Trying to categorize FMA is the same as trying to categorize any other generic term, kenpo, karate, kung-fu or whatever. Also there are literally thousands of dialects in the Phillipine archipelago so you may have many many people doing the same thing using different terminology to describe it, and the reverse, using the same terminology to mean different things. It makes online conversation rather difficult between systems. Oh, and there is the other problem, many traditional systems were taught as "do it like dis," with no terminology at all.

Some systems are taught as "complete" systems having applications and translations for all ranges of combat, others simply teach a particular range that they specialize in.

As a specific example, in Pekiti Tirsia Kali there is no term "panantukan," the unarmed portion is encompassed in the pangamot portions of the art. "Pangamot" translates roughly to "using your hands" and does not used the closed fist for punching. Very different from the punch oriented panantukan that I have seen, the "dirty" side of the dirty boxing is naturally very very similar, same chops, elbows, takedowns, gouges, etc.

The grappling portions are often called buno or dumog depending on who and where the practitioner is from, and I am sure there are other terms as well.

As a guy who transitioned from Kenpo to Pekiti Tirsia Kali, I am completely biased and found that about 90% of my kenpo, there was no conflict in the transition between the arts for me or my training partner who was a kenpo black belt as well. Like I said, I am completely biased.

 

[K831]

Blindside,

Helpful info, thanks. I don't mean to oversimplify with my question, I understand that it would likely take volumes to categorize. Just trying to get a better grip on some of the main themes etc.

From your post, it sounds like you are saying that 90% of your Kenpo fit right in with the Kali, as in more similar than conflicting, correct?

I ask, simply because the last time (although brief) that I had the opportunity to work in with a Kali group, I found it strikingly similar. I love Kenpo, and consider it "my art" however, a changing work schedule doesn't allow me to attend the classes I have been going to as often as I would like. So, my mind started wondering to other options so I could get more training in. Started looking for some FMA options in my area, and quickly realized I wasn't sure what each of the options were!

Thanks for the info.

 

[Mider1985]

From what i understand Kali/Escrima/Arnis are the same thing but diffrent names there are alot of diffrent arts that are very similar to each other thats why you hear of this type of silat and that type of silat but its basically one group of people saying there system is better then the other systems' Panantukan DOES exist Dan Inosanto Teaches it he says that it was the original boxing that what we see today is a VERYYYYYYYYYY watered down version. Some arts supposidly "dont exist" like panantukan because the phillipino people dont want outsiders learning it. But it exists if it doesnt then i dont know what he teaches or how he teaches it but it looks pretty damn affective for somtehing that "doesnt exist" And If you ever hear a interview or a teaching of Dan Inosanto the man knows what he's talking about.

The arts of FMA are very good good enough to attract people like Dan Inosanto and Bruce Lee.

 

[Blindside]

From your post, it sounds like you are saying that 90% of your Kenpo fit right in with the Kali, as in more similar than conflicting, correct?

Correct.

One of the largest differences is simply the nature of a long(er) weapon and the potential striking patterns that become available that cannot be extrapolated from unarmed experience simply due to the lack of analagous physiology.

The other major difference is a cultural one, it is simply stupid in an bladed weapon society to do any attack on another person that ties up both your hands and doesn't inhibit any of their weapon utilizing limbs. So attacks like lapel grabs and two handed chokes are essentially never practiced. Pekiti assumes the presence of a blade so tackles and single leg takedowns aren't used offensively, they give the other guy simply too much opportunity to use his hands. The natural downside is that you don't practice defenses against those attacks very often.

 

[MJS]

I have some general questions about FMA. I have been involved in many styles of martial arts, but predominately varying types of Kenpo, with the focus the last few years being on American Kenpo.
I have studied some FMA for brief periods, but in those instances, not much discussion happened regarding the background, lineage, history etc. I liked a lot of what I learned, and have often wanted to integrate some type of FMA into my training again. I can only make it to my Kenpo school once, maybe twice a week.
That notion has led me to pay attention to posts, threads, schools etc that are on the subject of or teaching various FMA’s.
That has caused me to realize that I lack much by way of clarity on the history and differences of the various types of FMA’s out there.
Below is a bullet-point list of what I understand of FMA. I am hoping to gain a little context and background from you all.
Thanks,

FMA
-Indigenous to the Philippines. No, or very little, outside influence from other arts. Unique in that beginners start with weapons in conjunction with empty hand techniques, as weapons techniques are seen as simply an extension of the hand. Much of the motion/mechanics/tactics are based on the triangle (in terms of footwork, angles of entry etc)
Types;


-Eskrima/Kali/Arnis – these all seem to be different words that describe the same thing; A Filipino art teaching sticks, blades,weapons. I assume the different terms are used to describe arts from a different lineage, or region? How different are each of these and where do the different terms come from? Is a person at an Arnis or Eskrima school learning the same basic art as a person at a Kali school?

-Panantukan – Empty Hand Filipino techniques. This seems to be basically, Filipino kick boxing. My question here is; is this a separate style? Or is this the word used to describe the empty hand techniques you would learn in any Eskrima/Kali/Arnis class?

-Suntukan – Filipino boxing (seems like dirty boxing basically. Boxing with the addition of back-knuckles, hammer fists and some elbows.) Is this a separate art? Or again, is this simply a word to described the “hands” portion of Panantukan?

-Balintawak- I don’t know what this is. Seems to be a “regional” type of Eskrima/Kali/Arnis. The videos I have seen of stick work from Balintawak used the butt of the stick more, and seemed to favor a closer range of combat than that of other FMA vids I have seen. Does this style have much by way of empty hand work? Do they utilize kicks at all?

-Any grappling counterpart to the FMA’s?

In looking to integrate some FMA into my training, I want to know what I am looking at, and determine what region/lineage/style would likely fit my needs better.
I have seen some Panantukan videos that were really impressive, as well as some pretty neat Suntukan videos, but you don’t see schools for these two anywhere.
I also really liked the Balintawak clips I saw, however, I don’t know much about it. I have been told however that there is a Balintawak teacher in the Phoenix area, so I am interested.
Some Kali/Eskrima/Arnis I have seen I really liked, others , not so much. I don’t know what (region/lineage/individual practitioner) is making the difference.

Like Blindside said, trying to put them all in seperate groups would be kinda hard. Using Kenpo as an example, I like to say that its all the same, just from a different branch of the tree.

You'll find that in some of the FMAs, there may be more of a focus on a certain area. For example, an art like Sayoc, IMO, focuses alot more on the blade, than say Modern Arnis. This isn't to say there isn't blade work in Arnis, because there is, but again, its more of a focus in Sayoc.

As for the Kenpo and Arnis fitting together....it fits together very good!

Good luck in your search. Check out the schools in your area and see if its something you'll like. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Darrin Cook]

MJS,

Let me say that I started in kenpo years ago and was stunned at the similarity between kenpo and the FMA. In fact, you may find that you see kenpo in a new light after studying the FMA.

"Arnis" and "eskrima" are generally interchangeable and generic terms for stick fighting. "Kali" is a more recent term that some have taken to using. Rather than look at these three terms, I would look at the individual style.

Balintawak is a very close range style. My teacher, GM Maranga, explains that at the very closest range he only hits with the butt end of the stick, plus elbows, knees, and the head. There are kicks in Balintawak, but these are low kicks, sweeps, etc., which are consistent with close range stick fighting.

I am partial toward the long stick method, which has applications with the walking stick. You might include that as something to investigate.

 

[MJS]

MJS,

Let me say that I started in kenpo years ago and was stunned at the similarity between kenpo and the FMA. In fact, you may find that you see kenpo in a new light after studying the FMA.

"Arnis" and "eskrima" are generally interchangeable and generic terms for stick fighting. "Kali" is a more recent term that some have taken to using. Rather than look at these three terms, I would look at the individual style.

Balintawak is a very close range style. My teacher, GM Maranga, explains that at the very closest range he only hits with the butt end of the stick, plus elbows, knees, and the head. There are kicks in Balintawak, but these are low kicks, sweeps, etc., which are consistent with close range stick fighting.

I am partial toward the long stick method, which has applications with the walking stick. You might include that as something to investigate.

Hey Darrin,

I couldn't agree more. I've been training in Arnis for quite some time now. Its interesting because many of my fellow Kenpo black belts, train Arnis as well, some of the Arnis material is added into the Kenpo requirements, so yes, we're always fidning ways to blend the 2.

I've heard alot of good stuff about Balintawak, and one of these days, I'm hoping to see it in person.

 

[K831]

Seems to be a lot of co-practitioners of Kenpo/JKD or Kenpo/FMA.

I have limited time in both FMA and JKD, however, I did realize they have many similarities and the differences don't conflict really, so they are easy to study together.

I am so wedded to the AKKI as my "art" or "base art" that I can't bring myself to really learn anything that "conflicts" in terms of mechanics and structure. Hence my wanting to increase my training time has me looking at arts that don't conflict, as blindside pointed out, FMA's seem to mesh well with Kenpo.

 

[Blindside]

I am so wedded to the AKKI as my "art" or "base art" that I can't bring myself to really learn anything that "conflicts" in terms of mechanics and structure. Hence my wanting to increase my training time has me looking at arts that don't conflict, as blindside pointed out, FMA's seem to mesh well with Kenpo.

Some systems don't/won't mesh as well, as an example I studied Cabales Serrada Escrima for a bit and it was very different in structure than Kenpo. Where are you located? You will likely be limited in your selection by your area.

 

[K831]

Some systems don't/won't mesh as well, as an example I studied Cabales Serrada Escrima for a bit and it was very different in structure than Kenpo. Where are you located? You will likely be limited in your selection by your area.

I am in Mesa, AZ (Just east of Phoenix).

Here is what I have found so far;

http://www.dteskrima.com/instructors.htm (unfortunately this guy teaches out of one of the MMA gyms that also has a local promotion; They don't have a very good rep in the area. I have heard they are tough to work with if you don't sign up for the whole MMA package)

http://atienzakali.com/?page_id=46 (They have a gentleman listed as contact for an "official training group" but he isn't listed on their instructor page. Haven't gotten hold of him yet)

Ted Rabino - az-fma@hotmail.com

Original Giron Escrima & Bahala Na Multi-Style
Gilbert Martial Arts Training Center
602 679-9713

Mr. Sam Buot (Balintawak International)
Gilbert, Arizona
Website: www.sambuot.com for more information


Let me know if you see anything there that would mesh particularly well with Kenpo!

 

[Blindside]

FMA Digest also lists some schools in your area:
http://www.fmadigest.com/Database/Schools/north_america.html#usa

I have no idea how up to date these listings are.

 

[K831]

Thanks for the link Blindside.

Can anyone recommend some FMA specific forums that are particularly good? Google revealed a couple, like FMA talk.

Also, I am trying to contact the Atienza Kali group supposedly training here in the area. I have high hopes for that.

Can anyone enlighten me regarding Atienza Kali? I watched a bunch of there videos and read some of the articles on their site - I like where they seem to be going.

How does Atienza Kali differ from Sayoc or pekiti tirsia Kali?

It is my understanding that Sayoc is "all blade all the time" and does very little by way of empty hand.

Can anyone give me a little information on the Atienza curriculum? I am working to make contact with them, but I am OCD, so in the meantime, I am still trying to gather as much info as I can.

 

[geezer]

I am in Mesa, AZ (Just east of Phoenix).

Dang! I didn't see that you were in Mesa or I would have posted earlier! My background is primarily with Rene Latosa, but I currently train DTE with Jeff Latorre (Maestro Martin Torres number-one guy) at his house near Power Rd. and Baseline, just south of the 60. It's semi-private, but I know Guro Jeff is looking for a couple of new guys to round out our group. Like most FMA, DTE is a very practical system and would mesh well with your Kenpo. My foundation is Wing Chun, Guro Jeff has a very broad background, including Pekiti, and our system's head, Maestro Martin studied Kenpo as a youth. PM me if you are interested.

Now as for those other guys... well I've been to seminars with Manong Ted Rabino and also Guro Sam Buot. Terrific guys... you just have to pick the system that suits you. I will say that you are really lucky. Even though the FMA has a low profile in our area, we have some great people teaching. And that's not even mentioning the guys on the other side of the Valley like Mike Butz or John Jocobo. So there you have it, now start training! --Steve

 

[K831]

Geezer,

Thanks, I sent you a PM.

Well, between this DTE opportunity and the Atienza group I left a message with, I should be able to find something that fits my schedule and needs!

 

[ap Oweyn]

Below is a bullet-point list of what I understand of FMA. I am hoping to gain a little context and background from you all.
Thanks,

FMA
-Indigenous to the Philippines. No, or very little, outside influence from other arts. Unique in that beginners start with weapons in conjunction with empty hand techniques, as weapons techniques are seen as simply an extension of the hand. Much of the motion/mechanics/tactics are based on the triangle (in terms of footwork, angles of entry etc)
Types;

I'd disagree with the comment about outside influence. I think you see a lot of Chinese, Indonesian, and Spanish influence in the FMA. Western fencing is evident in both technique and terminology. (For example, the word "eskrima" is derived from the Spanish word for fencing, "esgrima.")

-Eskrima/Kali/Arnis – these all seem to be different words that describe the same thing; A Filipino art teaching sticks, blades,weapons. I assume the different terms are used to describe arts from a different lineage, or region? How different are each of these and where do the different terms come from? Is a person at an Arnis or Eskrima school learning the same basic art as a person at a Kali school?

Yes. It may be that different terms were indicative of different regions at various times in history. But now, they're pretty interchangeable. In fact, you see a lot of styles that once used one term now using another. My own school went from saying "Doce Pares Arnis" to "Doce Pares Eskrima." And there's been a recent shift to favouring the term "kali." I would suggest, though, that "kali" as a term is more indicative of recent interest in FMA and is not the "indigenous mother art" that you sometimes see floated.

The more salient question is what style of FMA. The three terms above are generic. They don't refer to specific styles. Doce Pares, Pekiti Tirsia, Sayoc, etc. Those are style names.

-Panantukan – Empty Hand Filipino techniques. This seems to be basically, Filipino kick boxing. My question here is; is this a separate style? Or is this the word used to describe the empty hand techniques you would learn in any Eskrima/Kali/Arnis class?

Different styles use different terms to describe their empty hand. "Mano mano," "pangamot," "panantukan," "suntukan." Etc. "Panantukan" seems to be mostly confined to the Inosanto lineage. Modern Arnis uses "mano mano" (from the Spanish). Doce Pares tends to use either "mano mano" or "pangamot." Etc.

-Suntukan – Filipino boxing (seems like dirty boxing basically. Boxing with the addition of back-knuckles, hammer fists and some elbows.) Is this a separate art? Or again, is this simply a word to described the “hands” portion of Panantukan?

I'd say both are generic. The empty hand portion of any FMA curriculum is going to be informed by the teachers' background in empty hand, either from other styles or from distinctly Filipino sources. Some people's empty hand will resemble muay thai (e.g., Yaw Yan). Others might resemble jiujutsu (GM Cacoy's "eskrido.")

-Balintawak- I don’t know what this is. Seems to be a “regional” type of Eskrima/Kali/Arnis. The videos I have seen of stick work from Balintawak used the butt of the stick more, and seemed to favor a closer range of combat than that of other FMA vids I have seen. Does this style have much by way of empty hand work? Do they utilize kicks at all?

I don't study Balintawak, so won't speak to the more technical questions. But yes, it's a specific style of FMA.

-Any grappling counterpart to the FMA’s?

It's called dumog or buno. But, not surprisingly, it doesn't appear that there's a specific style. More like a set of guidelines, considerations, etc. These terms, in my view, refer to the need for grappling. Not to a specific style.


Stuart

 

[ap Oweyn]

Sikaran: a general term for the use of the feet in fighting
A few systems use this as their base and use hands and weapons secondly or not at all.

That's where it gets confusing. The term "sikaran" does refer to kicking within a style. But it also refers to a style itself. "Sikaran" was founded by GM Geronimo Meliton. Resembles taekwondo, but with the typical FMA weaponry included.

 

[ap Oweyn]

From what i understand Kali/Escrima/Arnis are the same thing but diffrent names there are alot of diffrent arts that are very similar to each other thats why you hear of this type of silat and that type of silat but its basically one group of people saying there system is better then the other systems' Panantukan DOES exist Dan Inosanto Teaches it he says that it was the original boxing that what we see today is a VERYYYYYYYYYY watered down version. Some arts supposidly "dont exist" like panantukan because the phillipino people dont want outsiders learning it. But it exists if it doesnt then i dont know what he teaches or how he teaches it but it looks pretty damn affective for somtehing that "doesnt exist" And If you ever hear a interview or a teaching of Dan Inosanto the man knows what he's talking about.

The arts of FMA are very good good enough to attract people like Dan Inosanto and Bruce Lee.

I'm a big Dan Inosanto fan. He's how I came to FMA in the first place. And I don't think that anyone is suggesting that panantukan doesn't exist. It's just that the terminology seems particular to Guro Dan's camp. I haven't seen those terms used in other FMA camps. So there's sometimes a question as to where the terminology comes from, but there's no real disputing the skills of Guro Dan.


Stuart