Gender & Religous Worship; split from Mosque at Ground Zero thread

[Blade96]

I We needn't fear Islam

No, we needn't fear islam *rolls eyes*

One day shortly before the end of Ramadan, I saw a poster up at university inviting people to feast and share in breaking the fast and ceremony that ends ramadan. All people were invited - except the women had to go to a different room. Men and women are separate. They dont even pray together. I have seen them. I have seen the women who cover their heads. I read articles that implies that I am not modest because I do not cover up. I read other articles that insult men by saying that men are not capable of restraining themselves and treating women properly and thats why women have to cover up. I myself spoke to a group of muslims who had a booth set up to teach people about Islam. I had questions about modesty and why women covered up. They replied "We're not discussing that right now" Um, what? Aren't you here to tell people about Islam? Then why not answer my questions?

I feel that the beliefs today are part of the reason an Islamic man assaulted a women at our university by kissing her breast in an elevator. We arent modest, we're whores because we dont cover up. in those countries women are sexualized so much they think they can do whatever to us.

Some muslim groups even tryed to bring sharia laws to canada.

and yes, these are all the 'moderate' muslims who dont drive airplanes into buildings.

Just wanted to disagree with your statement.

 

[elder999]

No, we needn't fear islam *rolls eyes*

One day shortly before the end of Ramadan, I saw a poster up at university inviting people to feast and share in breaking the fast and ceremony that ends ramadan. All people were invited - except the women had to go to a different room. Men and women are separate. They dont even pray together. I have seen them.

So have I....

Some Orthodox Jews separate men and women for prayer, parties, etc....

Some Christian sects, like the Plymouth Brethren, also have a degree of separation between men and women.

I have seen the women who cover their heads.

So have I.....

Some Orthodox Jews require that women's heads be covered-men's too....

Some Christian sects require that women cover their heads-this is a long list, actually.....

I go to Peyote meetings-quite a few of them. Women generally (but not always) wear shawls. The closest explanation I've gotten was from my Cheyenne sister, Margaret (who's taught me a lot): "It identifies us as women."
Really? O...kay.....

Just wanted to disagree with your statement.

Disagree all you like. I don't see how those things are threats. Like a lot of religious requirements, they aren't necessarily rational, especially from the outside looking in, but they aren't things we need to fear, any more than we need fear those evil Amish for wearing homespun clothing and not driving cars.....:lfao:

 

[CanuckMA]

any more than we need fear those evil Amish for wearing homespun clothing and not driving cars.....:lfao:

Come now elder, you and I both know that we can make explosives from those horse-pucks. It's part of a long term plan. Never trust anybody with a beard and no mustache.

 

[Blade96]

Oh well.

I think beliefs like that are dangerous to men and women. and to the equality we strive for. Dangerous to women's rights. dangerous to democracy.

but if you disagree, oh well.

Just like i see something dangerous about those slow amish buggies you bring up. They can cause accidents.

 

[CanuckMA]

Oh well.

I think beliefs like that are dangerous to men and women. and to the equality we strive for. Dangerous to women's rights. dangerous to democracy.

but if you disagree, oh well.

Just like i see something dangerous about those slow amish buggies you bring up. They can cause accidents.

That's your world view.

What exactly is dangerous about men and women praying separately?

 

[elder999]

Oh well.

I think beliefs like that are dangerous to men and women. and to the equality we strive for. Dangerous to women's rights. dangerous to democracy.

but if you disagree, oh well.

Just like i see something dangerous about those slow amish buggies you bring up. They can cause accidents.

More to the point, those things are expressions of a particular culture, and a particular portion of Islam within that culture, and not something that's at all compelled upon the majority of Islam's adherents worldwide.

Even more to the point, within this culture, and this country, such practices are a matter of choice-if a woman chooses not to be that sort of Muslim, she can join another community, sever her ties with her family, and lead her life as she chooses.

She can even convert to one of the many shades of Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Zorastrianism, or B'hai, or Wicca, or Odinism, or
the Church of Satan, or Gozor worship if she chooses......
....or choose to be subservient to the men in her family, wear the hijab or a burkha, and be a "good Muslim wife." It's her choice-and the women you see wearing such things, if you spoke with them might talk about ther reasons for doing so-though they might not make much sense; they're religious, after all...:lfao:

 

[Blade96]

That's your world view.

What exactly is dangerous about men and women praying separately?

Just sounds like a violation to me. Kind of 'equal but keep em separate' or 'separate but equal'

almost like white restrooms (when it came to race) Separation.

 

[elder999]

Just sounds like a violation to me. Kind of 'equal but keep em separate' or 'separate but equal'

almost like white restrooms (when it came to race) Separation.

If there were separate stalls in those white restrooms, that might be a fair comparison, though again, in a different area, as, again, if women don't like those particular practices, they can choose a community that doesn't embrace them. As for the white restrooms, they were separate, but they were by no means equal.

here's an explanation, and it's a good one, psychologically speaking:

WE MEN FIND WOMEN EXTREMELY DISTRACTING, EVEN FROM OUR DEVOTION TO GOD.

It's men's weakness that lead to this, and not much of anything else, and it's probably a good thing for those that need it. I know when I'm at a ceremony where women participate, I notice them-I pay attention to everything, but I can certainly say that they might get a little bit of extra attention, right before I resume praying, anyway....:lfao:

 

[CanuckMA]

Just sounds like a violation to me. Kind of 'equal but keep em separate' or 'separate but equal'

almost like white restrooms (when it came to race) Separation.

Actually, we don't necesserally claim equal. Different. Not in a 'men are better', simply different. Different rules apply to men and women, a lot have to do withg the recognition that the woman is the main keeper of the household. It is often said that men and objects make a Jweish house, but a woman makes a Jewish home.

There are other reasons for the separation, having to do with a woman's privacy and ritual impurity.

 

[Blade96]

and you dont find that stuff sick? the fact that they are saying you dont have self control, you cant adequately pray (or w/e) because a woman is there, and you will react like the promiscuous tom cats my aunt used to own?

I call bs on that (those religious nut bars who say this). Horseradish. and harmful. and insulting to men.

claiming different can be harmful too.

 

[elder999]

and you dont find that stuff sick? the fact that they are saying you dont have self control, you cant adequately pray (or w/e) because a woman is there, and you will react like the promiscuous tom cats my aunt used to own?

I call bs on that (those religious nut bars who say this). Horseradish. and harmful. and insulting to men.

claiming different can be harmful too.

Not sick, or half of what you're saying here-just that the presence of women would cause us to look elsewhere-never mind the expected reactions. Of course, I don't hold to that viewpoint-I figure the Creator made women to distract us, and paying attention to them is simply paying attention to the Creation.-but that's me-I'm not a Muslim or a Jew-I'm barely a Christian, and only by birth and upbringing at that. I think (believe) tbere's more than enough room in my devotion for the occasional distraction provided by women.

I also have to agree with what Canuck has said-women are different. Quite a few American Indian ceremonies have rules around women's differences-they're not exclusionary, necessarily (there's a lot of flexibility there, and it depends on who's facilitating the ceremony as much as anything else) and they're usually explained as ways of respecting women.

I can understand your revulsion at such practices, but it's misplaced-it's not as though it applies to you, after all, and the reality is that in this country, women have a choice as far as participation in such things, as I've said. A great deal about religion is about submission of one sort or another, and, while you may find such practices opressive, it's not opression if one chooses to submit.......just my opinion.

 

[CanuckMA]

and you dont find that stuff sick? the fact that they are saying you dont have self control, you cant adequately pray (or w/e) because a woman is there, and you will react like the promiscuous tom cats my aunt used to own?

I call bs on that (those religious nut bars who say this). Horseradish. and harmful. and insulting to men.

claiming different can be harmful too.

It's the simple realization that for men, women can be distracting. It's not about wanting to jump the bones of every woman, simply that an attractive woman will get looked at. And I don't find it insulting. It just is. And BTW, before you make another judgement call, neither my wife or I grew up Orthodox. We chose this. Of our own free will.

I guess I'm now officially a nutbar. That kind of comments *I* find offensive. You make a judgement call on me and my community with absolutely no knowledge.

Claiming different is not more harmfull than claiming equal. In truth, we are different. I'll never be pregnant.

 

[Carol]

It's the simple realization that for men, women can be distracting. It's not about wanting to jump the bones of every woman, simply that an attractive woman will get looked at. And I don't find it insulting. It just is. And BTW, before you make another judgement call, neither my wife or I grew up Orthodox. We chose this. Of our own free will.

I guess I'm now officially a nutbar. That kind of comments *I* find offensive. You make a judgement call on me and my community with absolutely no knowledge.

Claiming different is not more harmfull than claiming equal. In truth, we are different. I'll never be pregnant.

If you're a nutbar, then you're my kinda nutbar. Don't ever change.

I am a woman, and I have no issue with the segregation.

The times I have attended synagogue, there were a ton of similarities -- aesthetically speaking -- to a Catholic Mass. We sat in pews, followed along with the Rabbi, there were kneelers in place should we have had to kneel in prayer...I don't think we did.

Now, in a Sikh house of worship, the aesthetics are very different, and are more similar to what one might find in a mosque/Islamic center. The main hall has no pews, or chairs, or any sort of furniture. The only installation is Palki Sahib -- essentially a platform with a canopy that is used to hold the holy scriptures when a reading or a service is being performed.

Everyone sits on the floor....the worshipers, the musicians, the sevadar reading from the scriptures....everyone. Traditionally, men and women sit on opposite sides. In Islam, men sit in front, the women sit in back.

The very first time I went to a Sikh worship service, I wore a skirt that was a bit too short for my liking when it came time to sitting on the floor. I was very glad that I was surrounded by other women and that my legs were not in the immediate gaze of the men.

In addition, a Sikh worship service tends to run longer than many Christian services. It isn't unusual for a full kirtan service to run for 2 to 3 hours. Not everyone can sit tight for that long. Some might need to get up to use the restroom. Some people go to pray, then take a short break to stretch their legs in the parking lot, or grab chai and a pastry from the community kitchen, and then return to the prayer hall.

This means people getting up and returning to their spot on the floor, or returning to a spot on the floor. Now....forgive me for being a bit graphic, but when one is walking upright amongst folks that are seated, their eyes are about the same height as your crotch. Personally, I'm just as glad to not have my crotch on display when everyone is trying to pray. :lol: And it goes further than that. When bowing to pray, people prostrate themselves. And when the service is very crowded, people can bump in to one another. Happens a lot, I've been the bumper as well as the bumpee in prayer...and being a woman I know that there are more than a few men out there that would exploit such a situation and make it look like an "accident".

The division isn't about denigrating women, its about protecting our honor and not being felt up by some perv when piled on the floor in a crowded mass, and not having our butt (and everything else) on display to everything with a Y chromosome when prostrating in prayer...which is a very vulnerable position for the body to be in.

I'll offer a challenge to any westerner that thinks women sitting in the back of a Masjid is demeaning. Pick a western house of worship, walk in to the main hall, and look at how many people want to sit in back versus how many people want to sit in front.

 

[CanuckMA]

You likely visited a Reform or Conservative synagogue that either shared or had aquired a church. There is no kneeling in a Jewish service. And your typical Orthodox Shabbat morning service will run 2-3 hours.

 

[Blade96]

i just don't agree or believe in any of it. That's all.

 

[Tez3]

i just don't agree or believe in any of it. That's all.

Blade, you don't have to believe in it or even agree with it but please don't call us sick because of something we chose to do. It doesn't affect you how we chose to behave in our chosen places of worship. We don't feel it's demeaning us or insulting us, it's the way we feel comfortable.

Take it as if it were martial arts, you have said several times you love doing Shotokan, you chose to do that and obviously enjoy it, you would be very unhapppy if a Judoka for example stated that punching and kicking people was demeaning and possibly quite sick, that people should be throwing and practising holds etc. A Judoka has no place passing judgement on a Karateka (and vice versa).
It's horses for courses, we do things the way we chose to, no one is forced to do it our way, there's plenty of synagogues where both sexes sit together. Passing judgement on us for something we chose to do thats not hurting or damaging anyone is unfair.

 

[Blade96]

I didnt call you sick. I called the beliefs and actions sick. There is a difference. actually.

I actually love you guys. Its why I hang around. I love ken Morgan for example, though he belongs to the conservative party of Canada.

btw I do call religious nut bars religious nut bars. I even called my religious uncle a nutbar when he told me he believes aids is god's punishment to us for allowing homosexuality and it jumped species from monkeys to humans because some gay person a long time ago or some bestial person had sex with a animal. and he believes aids is a gay disease.

that and why are women distracting for men, and its never the other way around. Wouldnt a woman find a good looking man distracting? Why is it that men are deemed unable to control themselves (muslims use this to say why women should cover up) ? People can control themselves. They're comparing you men here to tom cats as an example, who cannot actually control the urge to mate or stare or w/e. Its insulting. (i dont know how many men here actually find it insulting, but I believe it is.) Its insulting because men are absolutely capable of controlling. Plus it paves the way for all sorts of bad things (like rape myths such as he's out of control and she's the one who has to be able to....) See how these beliefs can be dangerous, why i see them as so? and why it potentially affects women and men too, you said it doesnt actually affect me, but it does have the potential. I am a woman.

btw.....I'll bite.......If I did go to a place of worship, I'll be glad to be the first one to sit up front. Let me at em. :uhyeah:

 

[CanuckMA]

Blade, you misunderstand. It's not that men can't control themselves. I live in the real world, I can fuly appreciate a beautiful woman, dressed any way she wishes, without trying to jump her bones. But in synagogue, I prefer to not have yet another distraction when I'm praying. Unlike Xtian, or even other streams of Judaism, Orthodox servoces can be quite chaotic. Everybody prays at their own pace, and catches up at certain points for cummunal prayers. In that environment, it is quite easy to become distracted.

And I know you did not try to mean it, but understand that for some of us, we live our beliefs. Judaism is not something I do at synagogue once a week, it what I am. So calling my beliefs sick is the same as calling me sick.

 

[elder999]

btw I do call religious nut bars religious nut bars. I even called my religious uncle a nutbar when he told me he believes aids is god's punishment to us for allowing homosexuality and it jumped species from monkeys to humans because some gay person a long time ago or some bestial person had sex with a animal. and he believes aids is a gay disease.

And that would be a "religious nutbar."

that and why are women distracting for men, and its never the other way around. Wouldnt a woman find a good looking man distracting? Why is it that men are deemed unable to control themselves (muslims use this to say why women should cover up) ? People can control themselves.

Because we're wired that way-men are distracted more than women, aroused more easily than women, and feel the urge more strongly than women: it's biology. Yes, we can control ourselves-I haven't been uncontrollably aroused at the sight of a woman's cleavage since I was maybe 16 years old, but I can remember what that was like. And I'm not even going to get into what happened with my exta-provocatively dressed 7th grade German teacher-except to say that I got nothing but A's in German, and often had to stay seated after class was over.....:lol: While nothing like that is likely to happen to me (as often) at nearly 50, it happened quite a bit before I turned 30, and it was

MADDENINGLY
distracting. :lol:

In fact, in spite of getting nothing but As, playing sports, reading books, Scouting and all the other things I was doing, it seemed as though I thought of nothing else.

They're comparing you men here to tom cats as an example, who cannot actually control the urge to mate or stare or w/e.\ Its insulting. (i dont know how many men here actually find it insulting, but I believe it is.)

It's not insulting. It's potentially accurate. (See above in re: thought of nothing else. :lol: )

See how these beliefs can be dangerous, why i see them as so? and why it potentially affects women and men too, you said it doesnt actually affect me, but it does have the potential. I am a woman.

But it doesn't actually affect you unless you choose to participate. If a man can't control his urges, it isn't because his religion teaches him that he can't-it's because he's a pig.

Oh, and what Canuck said above. (Not even going to get into American Indian cermonial things around women-most of them have nothing to do with being "distracted." )

 

[Empty Hands]

Everybody prays at their own pace, and catches up at certain points for cummunal prayers. In that environment, it is quite easy to become distracted.

Wow, someone IS distracted!