Gaseous phase of motion

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.

When do you learn it? On the first punch where the opposite hand chambers to the hip, as it is executing a back elbow. I tell people to think of it as such so that they will execute the opposing force with as much effort and focus as the forward motion.

Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.

To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state, from Delayed Sword to whatever, from a punch to a kick.

If I execute even the mass attack techniques exactly as prescribed without making necessary adjustments I am still moving in the solid state.

That is the way I look at it. There are people that know a lot more than I do, so take my opinion for the worth of what was paid for it.

Derek

An excellent explanation. I'm moving towards teaching people to become a combo of solid and liquid in their techniques, or gelatinous in nature, especially for beginners. The gaseous phase is definitely something only the more experienced practioners are able to achieve, and some never move at that level.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just to add something, the problem that I see, at times, in these discussions lies in mistaking "gaseous," for "more advanced...," and, "more appropriate."

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Just to add something, the problem that I see, at times, in these discussions lies in mistaking "gaseous," for "more advanced...," and, "more appropriate."

Mr. Robertson-
I was just wondering why you feel this is a mistake.
Could you elaborate please?

Thanks
Your Bro.
John

 

[Brother John]

Thanks for that Great explanation!
Very impressive.
Any chance on there being a seminar on employing these into our training at some upcoming Vegas camp???
PLEASE???

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

When and how do you employ it?
Clyde

I remember learning of it when I was a white belt, 2nd or 3rd class. It was presented to me as a progression that I should strive to work through... each phase having it's own particular objective to work on.
Solid: Good form/alignment.
Liquid: Good form/alignment with a marked reduction in antagonistic muscular tension or "drag" (aka; relaxation), coupled with continuous flow of action.
Gaseous: all of the above with the circles elongated, the corners rounded off and increasing contact manipulation/pressure.

That's a very rough and condenced paraphrase of what my instructor said over a few different lessons.

When we learn of it is one thing, but going through these stages is very different. I recall many many lessons in which the key thing my instructor was wanting me to do was just 'relax'. Having years of experience in other 'hard' systems of Karate... it took a bit to unlearn some motion habits....that's no lie.

How do we employ it?
As a goal to move toward.

Your Brother
John

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.


Derek

Where solid moves without regard to your opponents movements.
And liquid moves to take shape according to your opponents moves.
Then, wouldn't the gaseous state, also be where your moves, decide what your opponents next move will be?
Eg. When I hit him here and here, he WILL BE in this position blah, blah, blah, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.

Just a thought.
--Dave

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

As usual an excellent post from Mr. Ence!

Originally posted by dcence
Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.
Derek

Originally posted by dcence
In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment.
Derek

Much like a beginner student in the art working hard on achieving the base to the system with little expansion at this level.

Originally posted by dcence
In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker.
Derek

More like the intermediate student that now has a working usage of the system and is not so mechanical but can flow to the targets much easier than the beginner...

Originally posted by dcence
In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding or anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.
Derek

The way all advanced students should be able to move. This state is usually an automatic by-product of the hard work and training during the solid and liquid sates.

Originally posted by dcence
To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state.
Derek

Absolutely.......... Depending upon ones abilities and present State in the Art!~

:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Three States of Motion
Parker looks at kenpo much like the three states of matter: solids, liquids and gases. You can freeze water and turn it into ice; water will be liquid at room temperature; or you can heat it to the point where it turns into vapor. "Solid is solid," Parker says, "and whatever shape you solidify something in, that's the shape in which it will remain. Liquid seeks its level and flows down the path of least resistance, but gas seeks its volume.
"And this is the way I look at kenpo," continues Parker. "The end result is that I can kick one opponent and back knuckle two other guys off to my side. That's using kenpo in a vapor state, where I'm seeking my volume. But unfortunately, a lot of people haven't thought of this analogy; yet, it applies to the martial arts. There's a place for all three types of motion in kenpo."

This quote was taken right from a BB magazine article.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[dcence]

I am glad my post was positively met by people that I hold in high esteem. That is not always the case.

Heck, I remember going to a seminar in Vegas with Mr. Conatser where we went over Short One and he basically said (paraphrasing), "Okay, step back into your right neutral bow, buckling the person behind you and hitting him with a back elbow, and, of coourse, do the right inward block/and/or strike." I said to myself, "Now this guy understands the gaseous state of motion."

It is usually a matter of changing perspective, as opposed to changing something you do, though sometimes altering something you do will add that gaseous element.

Now, Clyde, I have heard of moving in many states, including the flatulent state, but I like your "gelatinous state" idea. It conveys the idea of moving fluidly at times, but solidifying for that brief moment of impact with real structural integrity.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
I am glad my post was positively met by people that I hold in high esteem. That is not always the case.

Heck, I remember going to a seminar in Vegas with Mr. Conatser where we went over Short One and he basically said (paraphrasing), "Okay, step back into your right neutral bow, buckling the person behind you and hitting him with a back elbow, and, of coourse, do the right inward block/and/or strike." I said to myself, "Now this guy understands the gaseous state of motion."

It is usually a matter of changing perspective, as opposed to changing something you do, though sometimes altering something you do will add that gaseous element.

Now, Clyde, I have heard of moving in many states, including the flatulent state, but I like your "gelatinous state" idea. It conveys the idea of moving fluidly at times, but solidifying for that brief moment of impact with real structural integrity.

Yep, I kinda like the idea myself being as it was my idea LOL. It's a hard concept to grasp for most as they like to either be too fluid or too solid. Moving with a happy medium is the Kenpo way. I tell people all the time that Kenpo is an art based on mediocrity but in no way a mediocre art.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[dcence]

I was just glad to see you stopped using a photo of your mug next to your posts.

 

[Touch Of Death]

BAM!

 

[jeffkyle]

Where did that come from????

 

[Bill Lear]

The Yoda Quote is:

"Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering."

Just thought I throw that out there...

Now onto the topic of interest:

I'm tripping out on this Jelly Phase... it defines motion at a critical point in a practitioners development. I believe it is a valuable term because it sure has helped me out a lot.

 

[dcence]

The more I think about it, I don't think I want to move like a bowl of jello. LOL.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
The Yoda Quote is:

"Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering."

Just thought I throw that out there...

Now onto the topic of interest:

I'm tripping out on this Jelly Phase... it defines motion at a critical point in a practitioners development. I believe it is a valuable term because it sure has helped me out a lot.

I know i have heard it the way i quoted it, before. I think now that maybe Obi One said it in one of the first 3 trilogy. Now I will have to watch them all again.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I know i have heard it the way i quoted it, before. I think now that maybe Obi One said it in one of the first 3 trilogy. Now I will have to watch them all again.

Yes... that's the way Obi Wan said it.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Yes... that's the way Obi Wan said it.

Obi Wan! I should have known better....I have never seen his name spelled out!

 

[Bill Lear]

Check out George Lucas' Star Wars Web Site. I think you might like it.

Always Kenpo,
Billy

 

[cdhall]

Well done sirs.

As much as I hate to post "Yep. Ditto. Me too." I thought I should do it here.

Thanks for posting. This is the type of stuff I visit this website for.
:asian: