Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[RTKDCMB]

Makes it a lot less likely that you will block a knee pick it up and dump the guy.

Not really, especially if your training actually includes an X-block.

 

[drop bear]

That's why I say use tactics and techniques that maximize situational awareness as much as possible first and foremost for the street. The Muay Thai clinch doesn't do that.

Basically, the way I am trained to fight, you always try to make sure you can watch elbows and knees. Not only do these indicate what's coming and how BUT since the waist and hands are in between them you are also watching for potential weapon deployment as you scan.

Yeah but you remain in a fifty fifty trade. Which is still high risk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh it sure as hell sucks. My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade. It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.

I saw the effects of this first hand actually. A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife. Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground. The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down. He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery. The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.

That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.

I've been starting to cover this point with my students, as we've started getting into knife defenses. I'm pointing out why I choose the "favorite" techniques I do, and how they keep the knife off of me, even if I don't know it's there. IMO, it's best to have a few favorite techniques that you like for both armed and unarmed attackers, so you'll use them even if the knife isn't seen. This also means you don't have to make such a big change when you go into "knife mode".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

I'd say a clinch like this can be useful in self-defense if you can use it to completely dominate them and get in a fast, hard shot and get back out. One quick knee, if you've kept him off-balance on the way in (which would slow down his knife-draw), would be effective. However, there are two problems with that: 1) what if he manages to partially defend the clinch, so your "one strike and out" strategy doesn't work", and 2) what if the knife is already in his hand and you didn't see it (you're actually pulling his knife toward your legs/groin)?

The Thai clinch is a very powerful weapon. Like most powerful weapopns in MA, it has a big weakness for some situations. I'd prefer not to use it, since I can't be sure I'm not in one of those situations. For someone very good at it, the risk might be worth the reward.

 

[drop bear]

Not really, especially if your training actually includes an X-block.

Gotcha. So that is why so many people get clinched up on and kneed is it?

Because they don't know how to x block.

Do you think this x block is an especially hard or obscure maneuver? That nobody has thought to do this?

 

[drop bear]

I'd say a clinch like this can be useful in self-defense if you can use it to completely dominate them and get in a fast, hard shot and get back out. One quick knee, if you've kept him off-balance on the way in (which would slow down his knife-draw), would be effective. However, there are two problems with that: 1) what if he manages to partially defend the clinch, so your "one strike and out" strategy doesn't work", and 2) what if the knife is already in his hand and you didn't see it (you're actually pulling his knife toward your legs/groin)?

The Thai clinch is a very powerful weapon. Like most powerful weapopns in MA, it has a big weakness for some situations. I'd prefer not to use it, since I can't be sure I'm not in one of those situations. For someone very good at it, the risk might be worth the reward.

There is so much more a bigger picture.

Ok. When you fight everything happens in fractions of seconds. So it is less of just parrying punches while you are thinking about what you may do if a knife comes out. And more about dealing with the threat at the time.

You are doing everything you can at that point to stop getting punched in the head and give yourself a bit of time to figure out what you are doing.

To defend a knife or anything you need to be in a position where you are a bit safe from everything else. Or you will not have a very good chance of spotting a weapon.

If you remain in range and you are not controlling the guy and you are not bashing the guy your ability to defend an attack diminishes. So you can either move back allowing the guy to gain momentum.(or time to draw a knife) or move forwards and clinch giving yourself the advantage.

And look you can do both it depends what you are trying to do.

But this idea that you can't clinch because of the off chance they have a knife will put you in deeper trouble.

 

[HW1]

I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second). I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL). If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use...

I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second). I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL). If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use...

Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.

Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.

I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.

Nice knife, BTW.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.

I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.

Nice knife, BTW.

And if you assume there might be a knife already deployed but not seen, that time gets even shorter.

I have only a small amount of experience with knife-fighting styles, but it was enough to inform some changes in my approach. I can't entirely avoid being in a compromised position where a knife could come to bear, but I can minimize the times I take options that put me there. This difference - having to deal with weapons - is one of the areas where pure sport training misses preparation for defense (obviously, there are areas where it excels, such as learning to take hits and dealing with highly motivated and skilled attackers).

 

[RTKDCMB]

Gotcha. So that is why so many people get clinched up on and kneed is it?

Because they don't know how to x block.

Do you think this x block is an especially hard or obscure maneuver? That nobody has thought to do this?

Why is it that every technique you endorse you seem to think cannot be defended against (especially if it is recorded on video or done in a sporting contest)?

 

[Hanzou]

I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you, you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the entire time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you, you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the entire time.

Agreed. The riskiest point is when you first get them to it, I'd think. The first strike - if effective -should dramatically reduce the change of getting a knife out. So, unless they manage to keep you from getting to a fully-deployed Thai clinch, your danger area is when you are getting into the clinch. This is when they have time and space to get to a knife. Of course, if the knife is already out, this transition is probably the most likely point of attack for them in that situation, too.

Of course, if they manage to stop you from getting the clinch on properly, or somehow block that first strike, then the danger is extended.

Does that seem right?

 

[Juany118]

I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you, you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the entire time.

Your assumption is a little over broad. The knees can reduce the chance but it's not just about the knees.

First: drawing a knife and opening it can be done in one motion with one hand. It is actually easier to do than most of the techniques thus far suggested to deal with the clinch.

Second: even if the above was not true, people tend to forget about that thing that happens in real life fights and not in the ring. Fight or flight. In a real life fight with a stranger, when you have no idea whether you are going to live or die adrenaline does crazy things when it comes to pain.

This part is a two way street by the way. The guy throwing the knees may not even know he has been stabbed as well. Initially he may well just feel a punch to where ever, until they feel something wet, start suffering the effects of blood loss or come off adrenaline they will have no clue it was a stab or a slash.

Third: it's a total crap shoot. When you get someone clinched up do you get enough "good knees" in to actually cause an overall degradation in their performance or did you get stabbed first.

In the end using the Muay Thai clinch is rolling the dice, as are many other techniques for that matter, when it comes to street level encounters. Points competition (think some Karate and TKD), ring fighting (MMA, Muay Thai etc), street/self defense are all different environments that do have technique overlap but they each also have different "rules" that make other techniques less effective, illegal, even dangerous for you to implement, when you cross the line from one to the other

 

[Juany118]

Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.

I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.

Nice knife, BTW.

I think the last part is the issue. When people aren't <insert weapon here> people there experience is narrow and so then follows their frame of reference. Maybe their only experience with knives are swiss army knives or folding buck knives that require to hands to open and/or sit in the pocket rather than simply be clipped to. Once those were the main types of folders. Beyond that you had balisongs, switchblades and gravity knives but the last three weren't all that common AND usually pretty cheaply made. That said over the last 25 odd years I have watched as knives often referred to as "tactical folders" became more and more mainstream, especially as the prices for ones of good quality have come down. When you go to the local flea market you now see these in the case next to the flashy looking stuff.

And thanks on the knife. When I found the DART I was like "dang that is a great self defense tool" because it is useful without the blade deployed. It even as a window punch that makes it useful when I respond to the (luckily) rare occasion I need to break a car window to extricate someone.

 

[Juany118]

There is so much more a bigger picture.

Ok. When you fight everything happens in fractions of seconds. So it is less of just parrying punches while you are thinking about what you may do if a knife comes out. And more about dealing with the threat at the time.

You are doing everything you can at that point to stop getting punched in the head and give yourself a bit of time to figure out what you are doing.

To defend a knife or anything you need to be in a position where you are a bit safe from everything else. Or you will not have a very good chance of spotting a weapon.

If you remain in range and you are not controlling the guy and you are not bashing the guy your ability to defend an attack diminishes. So you can either move back allowing the guy to gain momentum.(or time to draw a knife) or move forwards and clinch giving yourself the advantage.

And look you can do both it depends what you are trying to do.

But this idea that you can't clinch because of the off chance they have a knife will put you in deeper trouble.

It's not an either or proposition though. There are techniques, that can be used in close, where you can either maintain an appropriate level of awareness or where you can minimize the opportunity of your opponent deploying a weapon.

Remember in a real fight it isn't even just about people being able to pull a knife. If you are in a bar they can get a glass or bottle, fast food joint a tray etc. However if you use "in close" methods that involve first controlling limbs (as but one example) and then, if need be, controlling the core/head, from a flank, you are in a far better position to A. avoid a potential weapon and maintain control B. disengage if A. is unsuccessful

Going "straight up the middle" to clinch to strike or takedown is a far riskier proposition in a "no rules" environment full of weapons of opportunity. The real incident I noted earlier produced a dead body proving this fact. The victim who killed his assailant wasn't a trained martial artist, heck he had never been in a "real" fight his entire life. While not formally trained since High School his assailant was a trained wrestler and had a reputation as a brawler and a history of strong arm robberies, though he was never prosecuted as he was smart. He either victimized people involved in illegal activity (buying drugs) or immigrants who are in the country illegally (as was the victim who killed him.)

 

[Hanzou]

Your assumption is a little over broad. The knees can reduce the chance but it's not just about the knees.

First: drawing a knife and opening it can be done in one motion with one hand. It is actually easier to do than most of the techniques thus far suggested to deal with the clinch.

Second: even if the above was not true, people tend to forget about that thing that happens in real life fights and not in the ring. Fight or flight. In a real life fight with a stranger, when you have no idea whether you are going to live or die adrenaline does crazy things when it comes to pain.

This part is a two way street by the way. The guy throwing the knees may not even know he has been stabbed as well. Initially he may well just feel a punch to where ever, until they feel something wet, start suffering the effects of blood loss or come off adrenaline they will have no clue it was a stab or a slash.

Third: it's a total crap shoot. When you get someone clinched up do you get enough "good knees" in to actually cause an overall degradation in their performance or did you get stabbed first.

In the end using the Muay Thai clinch is rolling the dice, as are many other techniques for that matter, when it comes to street level encounters. Points competition (think some Karate and TKD), ring fighting (MMA, Muay Thai etc), street/self defense are all different environments that do have technique overlap but they each also have different "rules" that make other techniques less effective, illegal, even dangerous for you to implement, when you cross the line from one to the other

However, we're rolling under the assumption that you're dealing with a thai clincher who is extremely good from that position. Typically when you encounter someone at that level of proficiency, the ability to nail you with "good knees" is a given. Your capability of having the instant reaction of drawing a knife is suspect in this situation because your first reaction is more than likely going to be an attempt to stop the knees from slamming you in the face, or attempting to break the clinch, which requires your hands in front, not reaching into your pocket. Further, you have to deal with broken teeth, a broken nose, and other areas that greatly impact your fine motor abilities, much less the threat of simply getting knocked unconscious. As Drop Bear stated, it is a completely dominant position, and if your enemy is extremely good at it, you're in a lot of trouble, because they can disengage at will and throw elbows, punches, and kicks in very swift succession and place you right back in the clinch again.

Good luck swinging that knife around with any authority with blood choking you from a broken nose and teeth, and your eyes teared up and welled shut from knees and elbows to your face.

Don't get me wrong, you can definitely slash someone from that position.... If the person controlling you hasn't already started delivering punishment. However, if you're already past that point, trying to reach for a knife is pretty futile. As we say in Jiujitsu; You f---ed up a long time ago.

 

[Hanzou]

Agreed. The riskiest point is when you first get them to it, I'd think. The first strike - if effective -should dramatically reduce the change of getting a knife out. So, unless they manage to keep you from getting to a fully-deployed Thai clinch, your danger area is when you are getting into the clinch. This is when they have time and space to get to a knife. Of course, if the knife is already out, this transition is probably the most likely point of attack for them in that situation, too.

Of course, if they manage to stop you from getting the clinch on properly, or somehow block that first strike, then the danger is extended.

Does that seem right?

Yep.

 

[Juany118]

However, we're rolling under the assumption that you're dealing with a thai clincher who is extremely good from that position. Typically when you encounter someone at that level of proficiency, the ability to nail you with "good knees" is a given. Your capability of having the instant reaction of drawing a knife is suspect in this situation because your first reaction is more than likely going to be an attempt to stop the knees from slamming you in the face, or attempting to break the clinch, which requires your hands in front, not reaching into your pocket. Further, you have to deal with broken teeth, a broken nose, and other areas that greatly impact your fine motor abilities, much less the threat of simply getting knocked unconscious. As Drop Bear stated, it is a completely dominant position, and if your enemy is extremely good at it, you're in a lot of trouble, because they can disengage at will and throw elbows, punches, and kicks in very swift succession and place you right back in the clinch again.

Good luck swinging that knife around with any authority with blood choking you from a broken nose and teeth, and your eyes teared up and welled shut from knees and elbows to your face.

Don't get me wrong, you can definitely slash someone from that position.... If the person controlling you hasn't already started delivering punishment. However, if you're already past that point, trying to reach for a knife is pretty futile. As we say in Jiujitsu; You f---ed up a long time ago.

I think you missed my point. Your idea seems to rely then on the idea that the skilled Thai clincher is unstoppable once the person is in the clinch. However I think we all know there is no unstoppable technique.

That being the case I think you greatly under estimate the utter easy of getting a knife out of your pocket and deploying it. Once deployed, because you are in such a clinch it doesn't even require skill or "swinging", all it requires is blind stabbing and slashing, you will hit something period.

Here is an example of someone allegedly helpless in a manner similar to what you describe...DKU: West Virginia State Trooper uses knife in fight for his life

The assailant in this case was drowning the Trooper, this is arguably the ULTIMATE panic situation. The Trooper was also about to pass out but a knife was still drawn from a pocket and did enough damage to the attacker that he needed to be flown to a trauma center and was in critical condition.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you missed my point. Your idea seems to rely then on the idea that the skilled Thai clincher is unstoppable once the person is in the clinch. However I think we all know there is no unstoppable technique.

That being the case I think you greatly under estimate the utter easy of getting a knife out of your pocket and deploying it. Once deployed, because you are in such a clinch it doesn't even require skill or "swinging", all it requires is blind stabbing and slashing, you will hit something period.

Here is an example of someone allegedly helpless in a manner similar to what you describe...DKU: West Virginia State Trooper uses knife in fight for his life

The assailant in this case was drowning the Trooper, this is arguably the ULTIMATE panic situation. The Trooper was also about to pass out but a knife was still drawn from a pocket and did enough damage to the attacker that he needed to be flown to a trauma center and was in critical condition.

I never said the Thai clincher was unstoppable, I'm saying once the clinch is applied and punishment is being delivered your ability reach for a knife, deploy it, and counter attack with it is greatly impaired.

BTW, that scenario with the cop was not similar. While certainly a scary situation, we're talking about direct blows to your head from one of the strongest parts of the body over and over again. Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.

 

[Juany118]

I never said the Thai clincher was unstoppable, I'm saying once the clinch is applied and punishment is being delivered your ability reach for a knife, deploy it, and counter attack with it is greatly impaired.

BTW, that scenario with the cop was not similar. While certainly a scary situation, we're talking about direct blows to your head from one of the strongest parts of the body over and over again. Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.

So a person in a completely submissive position on the edge of blacking out in the primal panic of drowning isn't similar to being in a less submissive position getting knees to the face... If the civilian hadn't showed up and gotten him out of the water, the Trooper would be dead. Okay.

Yes, people have been knocked out by a single knee but again this simply proves that you are relying on, essentially, the perfect execution and best case scenario for the person using it. This thread wasn't just about a highly skilled Muay Thai fighter but self defense. It is foolish in the extreme to argue self defense based on best case scenarios.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.

Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.