Full Body Scanners Violate Child Porn Laws

[Bob Hubbard]

How the Israelis handle airport security

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• U.S. authorities have stepped up airport screening after failed Christmas Day attack
• Consultant Isaac Yeffet says Israel safeguards planes by interviewing all passengers
• He says well-trained agents can detect attackers and prevent incidents
• Yeffet: Security people need to be constantly tested -- and fired if they fail

CNN: What do you think of using full body scanners?
Yeffet: I am against it, this is once again patch on top of patch. Look what happened, Richard Reid, the shoebomber, hid the explosives in his shoes. The result -- all of us have to take off our shoes when we come to the airport. The Nigerian guy hid his explosives in his underwear. The result -- everyone now will be seen naked. Is this the security system that we want?
We have millions of Muslims in this country. I am not Muslim, but I am very familiar with the tradition, I respect the tradition. Women who walk on the street cover their body from head to toe. Can you imagine the reaction of the husband? Excuse me, wait on the side, we want to see your wife's body naked?... This is not an answer.

 

[CanuckMA]

From that article

"Stop relying only on technology," Yeffet told CNN. "Technology can help the qualified, well-trained human being but cannot replace him."

Emphasis mine. I have yet to be impressed by the training of screeners at NA airports. They look bored. They don't seem to care. I always have wires in my laptop bag. I have an Eoioen in there as well. It;s never been questioned.

 

[MJS]

Yes, but there isn't an image available to tell him that there are drugs in the car. The cop is using his own sense of smell, which he can bring to court and be tested for it's accuracy. Now, do people do that, not anymore. That's because the courts have ruled that the cop can search based on his training and experience. Most cops have smelled marijuana, and therefore it is readibly noticed when smelled. This is a totally separate issue.

This issue revolves around the use of a scanning device. Even the courts have noted when using binoculars, infrared sensors, and thermo-imaging devices that if the officer could not have been able to tell what was occurring with his normal senses, then the evidence would be inadmissable in court.

As en example in Kyllo (Kullo (2001) 533 U.S. 27), the USSC ruled that the warrantless use of a thermal imaging device upon a private residence does indeed constitute an unreasonable, and therefore illegal "search". How much more so on a person (which is held more inviolable by the courts), and something that literally invades their personal space?

Now, will this hold true in an airport setting, especially considering that magnetometers are already used? Who knows, but I'm sure the courts will hear about it one of these days.

What sparked this, was whether or not images would be saved on the computer somehow. Cryo stated that if images were not saved, then what proof of a bomb would there be, and I commented the bomb itself. If the scanners are that big of a deal, then lets find other options. I'm all for suggestions. So far, the only good one I heard is the use of a dog.

But that's just it. He doesn't see something odd. A computer is telling him that something is odd. That is a different story (see above).

Then perhaps what they need is better training. I like that like that was posted by CanukMa. IMO, alot of being good at detecting the BS, is being able to read people.

You don't need proof to provide the probable cause to search, only sufficient enough evidence to show that a reasonable police officer with the appropriate training and experience would be allowed to search. But remember, his knowledge, training, and experience will all be tested in court. If need be, they can also test his sense of smell. In what way will they be able to "test" this scanner, especially if no proof of the existence of what was actually seen will be available.

ok.

But remember, everything can be challenged in court. That person can claim racial profiling. Now, if the cops decided to pull over, say, every third car, but now all of a sudden their pulling out cars "at random" for traffic violations, there goes your we only stop every third car profile. So, even if the black driver who gets stopped wasn't the "third" one, but gets pulled over for a specific violation, he can then say, you only stopped me because I'm black. And even if he was the "third" one, if say the car before him got pulled over due to a headlight, then he can challenge that in court.

Once again, no on believes the cops anymore, so the case gets thrown out. Maybe...

True, and this is probably why alot of things get tossed out. But, in the example I used, it wasn't that they were just picking out the car with the black guy, but instead a car that was in violation. I'm sure that it was every 5th car, but the 4th car, was swerving so badly, that it was apparent the driver was under the influence of something, and they let it go...man, imagine the aftermath of that. LOL.

 

[MJS]

How the Israelis handle airport security

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• U.S. authorities have stepped up airport screening after failed Christmas Day attack
• Consultant Isaac Yeffet says Israel safeguards planes by interviewing all passengers
• He says well-trained agents can detect attackers and prevent incidents
• Yeffet: Security people need to be constantly tested -- and fired if they fail

some tihngs that I liked from that link.

Yeffet:

It's mandatory that every passenger -- I don't care his religion or whatever he is -- every passenger has to be interviewed by security people who are qualified and well-trained, and are being tested all year long. I trained my guys and educated them, that every flight, for them, is the first flight. That every passenger is the first passenger. The fact that you had [safe flights] yesterday and last month means nothing. We are looking for the one who is coming to blow up our aircraft. If you do not look at each passenger, something is wrong with your system.

Gee, I said something similar before....people who're well trained and qualified. If these rent-a-cop TSA jokers are not qualified, if people are crying about the scanners, than God Dammit, HIRE SOMEONE WHO IS QUALIFIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeffett:

We must look at the qualifications of the candidate for security jobs. He must be educated. He must speak two languages. He must be trained for a long time, in classrooms. He must receive on-the-job training with a supervisor for weeks to make sure that the guy understands how to approach a passenger, how to convince him to cooperate with him, because the passenger is taking the flight and we are on the ground. The passengers have to understand that the security is doing it for their benefit.
We are constantly in touch with the Israeli intelligence to find out if there are any suspicious passengers among hundreds of passengers coming to take the flight -- by getting the list of passengers for each flight and comparing it with the suspicious list that we have. If one of the passengers is on the list, then we are waiting for him, he will not surprise us.
During the year, we did thousands of tests of our security guys around the world. It cost money, but once you save lives, it's worth all the money that the government gave us to have the right security system.
I used to send a male or female that we trusted. We used to give them tickets and send them to an airport to take a flight to Tel Aviv. We concealed whatever we could in their luggage. Everything was fake, and we wanted to find out if the security people would stop this passenger or not.
If there was any failure, the security people immediately were fired, and we called in all the security people to tell people why they failed, what happened step by step. I wanted everyone to learn from any failure. And if they were very successful, I wanted everyone to know why.

AMEN! Fire their *** and get people that can do the job! 1 mistake can mean the difference between safety and a huge **** up!

Yeffet:

When you come to the check-in, normally you wait on line. While you wait on line, I want you to be with your luggage. You have to meet with me, the security guy. We tell you who we are. We ask for your passport, we ask for your ticket. We check your passport. We want to find which countries you visited. We start to ask questions, and based on your answers and the way you behave, we come to a conclusion about whether you are bona fide or not. That's what should happen.
CNN: Every passenger should be interviewed, on all flights?
Yeffet: Yes, 100 percent...
I want to interview you. It won't take too long if you're bona fide. We never had a delay.
Number two, I have heard so many times El Al is a small airline. We in America are big air carriers. Number one, we have over 400 airports around the country, why hasn't anyone from this government asked himself, let's take one airport out of 400 airports and try to implement El Al's system because their system proved they're the best of the best.
For the last 40 years, El Al did not have a single tragedy. And they came to attack us and to blow up our aircraft, but we knew how to stop them on the ground. So let's try to implement the system at one airport in the country and then come to a conclusion...

And this is only going to happen with qualified people. Its good to see this happening.

What makes me laugh though, is I'm sure people will still ***** and cry like ****ing babies if this were to happen. "Waahhhhhh...Wahhhh..its taking them too long for them to talk to me." "Waahhhh...wahhhhh....I dont like their line of questioning."

Waahhh...wahhhh..... how about this....Shut the **** up and deal with it or dont fly!!!!

 

[Tez3]

Security can be too clever. If 'everything' is shown on these scanners potential bombers will find different places to hide them, they'll become even more sly but by using people instead they will carry on using the tried and tested methids of concealment and we will catch them. We don't need for things to be made harder. As I said people should calm down, not over react and play it cool.

 

[CanuckMA]

I dont like their line of questioning."

Actually their line of questioning is quite random. It's not the questoins that matter, it's how you react answering them.

I used to fly a lot. Back when they still asked if you packed your luggage yourself, It was the same questions, in the same order. Did you pack your luggage? did anybody ask you to carry something? did you leave your luggage unattended?
I used to just walk up to the desk and before any queation was asked simply say: yes, no, no and smile. The smarter agents got it.

 

[Bruno@MT]

You stop that crazy talk Irene. What's next? Suggesting we'll be allowed to carry such obvious lethal weapons like nailclippers?

Although I have to give credit here it is due: When I got back from tech-ed in november, I discovered in the security line at Tegel airport in Berlin to my horror that I had forgotten to pack my swiss army knife in my checked luggage. I've been carrying that knife for 20 years now. It's more of a multi-tool than a knife, but still I thought I'd lose it for sure.

The polite but stern lady at the X ray asked me to hand it over and I had already silently said goodbye to this trusted friend. She looked at it, looked at me, and said 'hmmm. I see' and gave it back. I was stunned and grateful a this unexpected show of common sense. Somehow, she must have understood that this work weary person was unlikely to hijack his planeride home with the 2" blade in his multitool

 

[Carol]

You stop that crazy talk Irene. What's next? Suggesting we'll be allowed to carry such obvious lethal weapons like nailclippers?

Although I have to give credit here it is due: When I got back from tech-ed in november, I discovered in the security line to my horror that I had forgotten to pack my swiss army knife in my checked luggage. I've been carrying that knife for 20 years now. It's more of a multi-tool than a knife, but still I thought I'd lose it for sure.

The polite but stern lady at the X ray asked me to hand it over and I had already silently said goodbye to this trusted friend. She looked at it, looked at me, and said 'hmmm. I see' and gave it back.

Something I've seen in at least one large airport is a "ship it home" service. If you get caught in the security line with contraband, the service will pack it up and ship it to a given address (for a fee, of course). Seems like a great idea to me, but not one that is widespread.

 

[MJS]

Actually their line of questioning is quite random. It's not the questoins that matter, it's how you react answering them.

I used to fly a lot. Back when they still asked if you packed your luggage yourself, It was the same questions, in the same order. Did you pack your luggage? did anybody ask you to carry something? did you leave your luggage unattended?
I used to just walk up to the desk and before any queation was asked simply say: yes, no, no and smile. The smarter agents got it.

Thats correct. I was just trying to think, for a moment, like the typical airline passenger, who doesnt have the 'time' to be bothered with these types of questions. LOL!

But you're right, 100% correct. Ask the questions, worded properly, and go off the replies. Kinda like that show that I watch, Lie To Me. Guy would ask questions, and would basically watch body language, facial expressions, eye movement, etc. to determine if the person was lying or not. Good show.

 

[CanuckMA]

You walk up to somebody in the line and just ask them what they had for lunch. It's all in the ability to be able to read people's reactions to a question they have not rehearsed.

It's not rocket science. Customs agents do it all the time.

 

[Tez3]

You walk up to somebody in the line and just ask them what they had for lunch. It's all in the ability to be able to read people's reactions to a question they have not rehearsed.

It's not rocket science. Customs agents do it all the time.

Absultely, havae a smile on your face, talk pleantries, act if if you are putting them at their ease. If they are genuine they will be at their ease, if not there will be tells. You also have to make sure they aren't just terrified of flying though!

On the subject of knives people make a big fuss about the size knives but frankly more than an inch of blade is a waste. which is why a fuss is made of small knives and nail clippers. I know how to end your life with nail clippers, have a think, can you use them too? I bet you can.

 

[Cryozombie]

On the subject of knives people make a big fuss about the size knives but frankly more than an inch of blade is a waste. which is why a fuss is made of small knives and nail clippers. I know how to end your life with nail clippers, have a think, can you use them too? I bet you can.

BUT... a small weapon provides less of a psychological advantage, and I think you would find more people ready to take you on if you were waving your nail clippers about than if you had, say, a sword... yes?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

All passengers should be required to carry a 2 1/2 hand sword on flights.
Also, must fly nude, in blue body paint. LOL!

 

[Carol]

An armed manifest is a polite manifest? :lol2:

 

[Bruno@MT]

On the subject of knives people make a big fuss about the size knives but frankly more than an inch of blade is a waste. which is why a fuss is made of small knives and nail clippers. I know how to end your life with nail clippers, have a think, can you use them too? I bet you can.

Ye Irene, but I can far more effectively end your life with a sharpened pencil. There are so many things in my laptop carry bag with which I can kill someone that it becomes rather pointless to target perfectly normal things like little multi tools or nailclippers. For fun, I just spent a couple of minutes enumerating them.

Apart from said knife, my laptop bag contains
- thin titanium pen that would go through a sternum, temple, eye, throat, etc.
- pencil. see previous point
- several computer memory modules (not the usb kind but the internal printed circuit board design). it has sharp corners and serrations, and will do significant damage while slashing.
- a strong USB cable of approx 3 feet to be used as a garrotte.
- a belt with metal clasps on both ends.
- 3 push pins with pointy ends of about half an inch.
- a small screwdriver that can be used for stabbing and tearing.
- a USB stick with a thick back end which would fit my fist comfortable. if the USB connector sticks out between my middle and ringfinger, it would make a fairly effective boxing iron, or at least hurt like hell and do damage to soft tissue.
- several small objects with sharp corners.

That is just my laptop bag. Mind you, I did not choose those things for their use as a weapon, this is just what is usually in it. I have taken it with me on numerous flights without so much as a second look. And on several flights it also had things like small scissors with did not show up on the xray due to the angle.

If I wanted to and spent some time thinking, and possibly had a bit of money to have some things custom made, I bet I could come up with much more lethal and dangerous things that still looked harmless enough to pass without so much as a second glance.

So I hope you can see that my small knife would not make a significant difference to my on-board arsenal. While such a small thing might be used as a weapon, it would not deter people from jumping me and beating me senseless.

 

[Bruno@MT]

First of all, there is a fat chance those images will be stored in temporary image files during processing. And then there is possibly an option to save images for debugging. Perhaps not on the user interface, but maybe via a config option somewhere. And lastly, there will maybe be an option to save images to prove probable cause, or something similarly CYA.

He shoots! He scores!
I knew I was right. And it didn't even take long for this to find out.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/11/body.scanners/

In the [FOIA] documents, obtained by the privacy group and provided to CNN, the TSA specifies that the body scanners it purchases must have the ability to store and send images when in 'test mode.'

"There is no way for someone in the airport environment to put the machine into the test mode," the official said, adding that test mode can be enabled only in TSA test facilities. But the official declined to say whether activating test mode requires additional hardware, software or simply additional knowledge of how the machines operate.

Right. I wonder how long it would take me to figure it out.


The TSA officer viewing the image cannot see the actual passenger. No cameras, cell phones or other devices capable of capturing an image are allowed in the room where the image is displayed, according to the TSA.

Right. And with cameras being able to fit almost in a pinhead these days, they make sure of this by... how? Full body cavity search of all the operators upon arrival and leaving?

The agency adds that images are deleted from the system after the operator reviews them. And employees who misuse the machines are subject to serious discipline or removal.

Yeah this worked SO well with the Blackwater guys.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, as long as each TSA employee is screened when they arrive at work each day...wait, TSA is exempt? Oh bother.

 

[MJS]

Well, as long as each TSA employee is screened when they arrive at work each day...wait, TSA is exempt? Oh bother.

Exactly! And who exactly are the people who're stealing from unlocked luggage? Oh yeah, the TSA and airport baggage handlers. Go figure. LOL! I'd be willing to bet that if you ran half those guys, they'd have a rap sheet longer than my arm.

 

[Carol]

Exactly! And who exactly are the people who're stealing from unlocked luggage? Oh yeah, the TSA and airport baggage handlers. Go figure. LOL! I'd be willing to bet that if you ran half those guys, they'd have a rap sheet longer than my arm.

Hard to say. DHS tends to do a lot of pre-screening before hire, and there is usually high demand for federal jobs in any economy.

There tend to be a lot more issues with theft in low income jobs than there are in mid/income jobs, and DHS doesn't pay very well. And yes, I think that also means that there is a risk of nekkid passenger scans being filtered through the black market by fed EEs desperate for cash.

 

[MJS]

Hard to say. DHS tends to do a lot of pre-screening before hire, and there is usually high demand for federal jobs in any economy.

There tend to be a lot more issues with theft in low income jobs than there are in mid/income jobs, and DHS doesn't pay very well. And yes, I think that also means that there is a risk of nekkid passenger scans being filtered through the black market by fed EEs desperate for cash.

I dont know what the pay scale for the TSA screeners or baggage handlers is, but if I had to guess, I'd say it isn't that high. I doubt its somewhere in the $20+ range. But wait, here's what a quick search found.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070628052840AACQhPO

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_airport_baggage_workers_make

http://www.chacha.com/question/how-much-does-a-baggage-handler-make-at-delta-airlines

Then theres this:
http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.a...ler=basic.aspx&ss=0&AVSDM=2010-01-09+14:31:00

http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers/pay_scales.shtm

http://jobsearch.usajobs.gov/Channe...er=basic.aspx&ss=0&pg=1&q=tsa baggage handler

So, who was or is responsible for the baggage thefts that happen? Are they DHS or TSA employees?