From Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese Jiu Jitsu

Headhunter

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I simply cannot let Gweilo's claims about how Hapkido is generally taught around the world stand unchallenged, and while I am sure that this post will be met with another form of the no true scotsman fallacy, I will not accept Gweilo self-appointed role as sole holder of the power of definition for how Hapkido is taught worldwide.

I have no clue as to why Gweilo seemingly goes out of his way to discredit me, and even twist my words to confirm with this attempt, simply because I didn't answer his question about the first technique I ever learned to his satisfaction, but I suspect it has something to do with a wish to present his own Hapkido style as the sole, true Hapkido, in true religious fundamentalism-style, which would make everyone else, including me, imposters and heretics.

First, let's look at his claims, and see how it confirms to the real world.



While this may or may not be true for Gweilo's organization (I have no clue, as I haven't trained in his org), there are a multitude of Hapkido organizations out there, and even more schools, with very diverse approaches to teaching Hapkido. Anyone can do (and should do, to put Gweilo's claims in perspective) a simple google search for "Hapkido Curriculum", and find countless examples that all doesn't just differ from each other, but also differ from Gweilo's claims of how things are supposed to be.



Anyhow, let's look at the curriculums of various Hapkido organisations, led by high level grandmasters with well documented linages, and see how they confirm with Gweilo's claims above.:

1. Kwan Nyom / International Hapkido Alliance, led by Geoff Booth 8th dan. Geoff also recieved a 10th dan from Ji Han Jae, but is reluctant to use that dan, as he (according to himself), feels he has not earned that high a degree yet.

The term Kwan Nyom can be translated as "School of Concepts", and its self defined style of Hapkido with a curriculum that is conceptualy based with two new concepts introduced at each level. His entire curriculum is available on video, of which I own a set. In the videos, he begins with introducing proper stances, and then goes onto strikes and kicks, before moving onto the concepts. The first concept introduced in the IHA/Kwan Nyom curriculum is, interestingly enough, Evasive Movement, and is more specifically focused on deflection and angular movement. The live hand is introduced in the second concept, called Circular Releases. In other words, Geoff Booth begins with the same concept as I do when teaching my own students.

Also, here is a link to a video of a seminar by Geoff Booth in Poland in 2016, that seems to be open to anyone (just as with my first seminar back in the day) judging by the variation of stylists present, where he begins the seminar with knife defenses, and not live hand.

Conclusion: Geoff Booth (and by Proxy Ji Han Jae, as he gave Geoff Booth his 10th dan AFTER Geoff Booth started his own style) doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.


2. Bong Soo Han, and his IHF (one of three organizations calling themselves IHF). It is well documented that Bong Soo Han trained with both Choi Yong-Sool and Ji Han Jae, before starting his own organization.

Luckily for us, Bong Soo Han also committed his entire curriculum up to 1st. dan to video (of which I own a set) before he died, and also wrote a book on the basics of his art (which I own two copies of), giving us an insight into what his emphasis is.

In both the book and the videos, he starts with Tan Jon breathing, before moving onto proper fighting stance, and angular movement. He then goes onto teaching kicks and strikes before returning to angular movement, and showing how that can be combined with deflection to defend against basic punches. Live hand doesn't show up in his yellow belt curriculum at all, and isn't present until his orange belt curriculum, when teaching wrist hold defenses. In other words, he emphasizes the same thing as I do, BEFORE moving onto live hand and wrist releases.

Conclusion: Bong Soo Han doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.


3. Yun Bee Kwan / World Hapkido General Federation, and GM Shahram Lashgari 7th dan, a student of Kim Jung Soo 9th dan, one of the original students of Choi Yong-soo. Yun Bee Kwan is one of the recognized kwans of the Korean Hapkido Federation (KHF).

This is my own instructor, who holds open seminars every other month, as well as closed seminars for his black belts. In his open seminars, he tend to focus on different things each seminar, which means that for people showing up at his seminars, their first technique depends on which seminar they first showed up at.

In 2013, his entire year of open seminar was filmed, which is great since while I was present at most of those, I have no clue as to what was taught at each, and the videos gives me an oportunity to actually see what he emphasized at each seminar. And lo and behold, only one of those actually starts with a discussion of live hand, meaning that for everyone without Hapkido-experience who showed up at any of the other seminars that year, their first technique would be something else. And many of those later became students of his, and would then also answer «wrong» according to how Gweilo thinks anyone who has trained real Hapkido ought to answer the question of what their first technique learned was.

GM Lashgari has also filmed his own curriculum up to first dan as a reference to his instructors (not available for sale), and the first thing he starts with at white belt level in this curriculum is breakfalls. Discussion on the live hand shows up in the first technique after that, but in general, his curriculum is structured differently from Gweilo's outline above, and GM Lashgari has also made it clear that it is up to the instructors under him to structure their teaching in they way they see fit, as long as their students know what they should know when it is time for grading.

Also, he was not my first Hapkido instructor, so the emphasis in his curriculum doesn't even apply to me in terms of what was the first technique I ever learned. As I said above, I have no recollection of what technique that even was, as I was one of those "outsiders" who had my first exposure to Hapkido showing up at an open seminar in the ninethies.

Conclusion: GM Shahram Lashgari, and by proxy, his instructor Kim Jung Soo, doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.


4. Jin Jung Kwan, founded by Kim Myung Yong, 9th dan, one of the original students of Ji Han Jae, who he began to train under in 1958.

This style of Hapkido was started in 1967 by an original student of Ji Han Jae, and has a general policy of open enrolment meaning that the first technique a student is exposed to varies according to when that student began training.

The curriculum of this style is also well documented in several books and a video series, all of which I own copies of. The first thing emphasized in the first book is tan jun breathing, before moving onto basic kicks and strikes.

In his video series, the first emphasis is proper stances, and he then moves onto tan jun breathing and then basic strikes as a response to wrist grabs (where the live hand shows up for the first time). He then moves onto proper break falls.

Conclusion: GM Kim Myung Yong, and by proxy, his instructor Ji Han Jae, doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.


5. World Hapkido Martial Arts Federation and GM Don Oh Choi, 9th dan.

The Korea-based WHMAF has written detailed books documenting their whole curriculum, and the order of techniques taught. Their first emphasis, is Tan Jun breathing, and then they go on to proper stances, basic movement and basic strikes. Live hand shows up after that.

Conclusion: GM Don Oh Choi doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.

6. International Daemoo Hapkido Martial Art Association, and GM Tae Man Kwon, 9th dan.

GM Tae Man Kwon has listed his whole curriculum online, as well as described how a regular session is structured in his school. It goes as following:

"Master Kwon teaches students in classes between 60 and 90 minutes. The first part of the class begins with a series of exercises to build strength and flexibility, followed by group practice covering the basic punching kicking, falling and rolling techniques. Students are then paired with other students of similar level to practice their individual techniques."

In other words, any new student to his school will first be taught basic punching and kicking, as well as rolling, before moving on to partner exercises. Instruction in live hand will, according to Tae Man Kwon himself, not be the first technique a new student learns.

Conclusion: GM Tae Man Kwon both does and doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido in the two alternative realities that is Gweilo's claims and GM Kwon's own words, and we can therefore conclude that he both does and doesn't teach Hapkido in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.

7. Combat Hapkido, and GM John Peligrini, 9th dan.

While Combat Hapkido is usually refered to as a descendant art of Hapkido, it is still interesting to see their focus. As John Peligrini has made three different video series documenting his curriculum as his art evolved over the years, as well as written multiple books, it is easy to see what he emphasises. His current curriculum begins with breakfalls, and then goes onto proper stance, and basic strikes and kicks. The previous version of his curriculum began with an emphasis on proper stance and basic strikes, before moving onto wrist hold releases, where the concept of the live hand shows up for the first time.

Conclusion:
GM John Peligrini doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido, and doesn't teach it in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.

Kwang Sik Myung 10th dan, and The World Hapkido Federation.


While I don't have access to the entirety of the WHF curriculum, I have several videos of GM Kwang Sik Myung and his students presenting the basics of the art, as they see fit to do so. None of these are structured exactly the way described by Gweilo above, and that discrepancy follows the trend of all the other examples above. In the two videos on WHF Hapkido published by Budovideos.com, for example, the focus is firstly on Tan Jun breathing in both, and then on offensive armbar (kal nu ki) in one, and on basic hand strikes in the second.

One could ofcourse argue that a video doesn't present a real overview of how the art is actually taught in the real world, but isn't it strange that in EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE ABOVE, the emphasis and order of what is taught differens from Gweilo's outline? Isn't that a tad strange if, as he claims, everyone worth their salt in the Hapkido world, always introduces techniques and concepts in a certain way and order?

Conclusion: GM Kwang Sik Myung both does and doesn't have a true understanding of Hapkido in the two alternative realities that is Gweilo's claims and GM Kwang's own words, and we can therefore conclude that he both does and doesn't teach Hapkido in the correct way, according to Gweilo, the 3rd dan self-appointed sole defender of the true path of Hapkido.

I could go on and on and on, but I think I have made my point.

Overall conclusion:


The claims of a common and universal approach to how Hapkido is taught, as presented by Gweilo above, is simply not in accordance with the vast diversity of how Hapkido is taught in the real world. While I would have no problem accepting the claim that Gweilo's outline is how things are done in his own organization, his attempt at presenting this as the gold standard and only correct way to teach Hapkido, and thereby discrediting anyone who doesn't do thing exactly as he presents them, has been shown to not hold water.


While I have no hope that any of what is presented above will actually open up Gweilo's mind to the actual diversity in how Hapkido is taught out there, I presented this list in the hope that it makes it clear to anyone who has read his claims in this thread, thay they are not factual, and that his statements on how Hapkido should be taught, is probably more an expression of his own fundamentalism and rigidity of thought, than any reflection on how Hapkido is taught in the real world.

I now consider myself finished with this ordeal, and will not do any more follow ups on Gweilo's wild claims, nor un-ignore him (or her, whatever applies) for the time being, as I'm quite fed up with him and his ********. Nuff said.
Did anyone actually make it all the way through this rant?
 

CKB

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Why knows. I just wanted to give multiple counter examples to a certain users dogmatic statements about how Hapkido is taught. I guess it is probably not of interest to the wast majority of users in here, but at least I got out some steam writing it. :)
 

VPT

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I opened this thread with gleeful excitement, getting ready to read five pages of koryu and jujutsu discussion. Damn.
 

Buka

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Yep, but in those cases you generally don’t apply techniques which are designed to break limbs or choke someone unconscious. Any good grappler should know ways to control someone without damaging them.

Exactly. But I'm far from being a good grappler.

I've used the choke (position) to temporarily hold people without actually squeezing hard enough to choke them. Especially standing, moving them backwards, shaking them off balance as we move. I've always loved that position.
 

Hanzou

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I know this thread has probably run its course, but if you're looking for a softer Japanese style rooted in JJJ, I'd recommend Aikido.
 

Ivan

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I recently gave up on Brazilian jujitsu. I love the sport, but my body is mangled - cauliflower ear, scar tissue on my eye, beginning of arthritis on my finger/hand. This is after only 3 months of consistent training.

I am interested in Japanese jujitsu, but there just isn't any information about it out there.

For those of you who have experience-

1. How is the cardio in Japanese jujitsu?

2. Is there a lot of grip training that would lead to arthritis?

Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
I train in a club called Kuro Obi Ju Jitsu, which is for self defence. In my club, the cardio is light and we only train through sheer repetition. Months and months of just repeating the same 20 techniques. You need good grip for lapel chokes and collar holds, but apart from that (as far as I know) we mostly keep away from grabbing onto the gi or the belt so that we learn to appy the techniques without the need for a gi or a coat to grab onto the opponent.

Sadly, many clubs for TJJ (including mine) don't encourage sparring, and I haven't been able to pressure test the techniques which I have (supposedly) learnt.
 

Hanzou

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I train in a club called Kuro Obi Ju Jitsu, which is for self defence. In my club, the cardio is light and we only train through sheer repetition. Months and months of just repeating the same 20 techniques. You need good grip for lapel chokes and collar holds, but apart from that (as far as I know) we mostly keep away from grabbing onto the gi or the belt so that we learn to appy the techniques without the need for a gi or a coat to grab onto the opponent.

Sadly, many clubs for TJJ (including mine) don't encourage sparring, and I haven't been able to pressure test the techniques which I have (supposedly) learnt.

If your club doesn't allow sparring, you guys need to either form groups outside of class to spar, or go somewhere else. Lack of sparring is a killer, because you're not learning how to utilize your techniques under stress.
 

marques

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If your club doesn't allow sparring, you guys need to either form groups outside of class to spar, or go somewhere else. Lack of sparring is a killer, because you're not learning how to utilize your techniques under stress.
Agree. Just be careful how do you train and with the people involved. Sparring easily drifts to silliness, even under formal supervision.
 

BrendanF

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Sadly, many clubs for TJJ (including mine) don't encourage sparring, and I haven't been able to pressure test the techniques which I have (supposedly) learnt.

Just join a judo dojo.

And 'kuro obi' JJ is not Traditional JJJ, it's gendai (modern) JJ. Most folks take 'traditional' to mean actual koryu JJ.
 

Headhunter

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I train in a club called Kuro Obi Ju Jitsu, which is for self defence. In my club, the cardio is light and we only train through sheer repetition. Months and months of just repeating the same 20 techniques. You need good grip for lapel chokes and collar holds, but apart from that (as far as I know) we mostly keep away from grabbing onto the gi or the belt so that we learn to appy the techniques without the need for a gi or a coat to grab onto the opponent.

Sadly, many clubs for TJJ (including mine) don't encourage sparring, and I haven't been able to pressure test the techniques which I have (supposedly) learnt.
For grappling you need to roll. For stand up it isn't as important I mean you can get away with it but grappling you 100% need live training or in a real match all the techniques will be useless
 
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