From Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese Jiu Jitsu

[Deleted member 40465]

I recently gave up on Brazilian jujitsu. I love the sport, but my body is mangled - cauliflower ear, scar tissue on my eye, beginning of arthritis on my finger/hand. This is after only 3 months of consistent training.

I am interested in Japanese jujitsu, but there just isn't any information about it out there.

For those of you who have experience-

1. How is the cardio in Japanese jujitsu?

2. Is there a lot of grip training that would lead to arthritis?

Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Holy cow, three months? I wonder if the school you attended was simply engaging in reckless training practices.

 

[jobo]

I recently gave up on Brazilian jujitsu. I love the sport, but my body is mangled - cauliflower ear, scar tissue on my eye, beginning of arthritis on my finger/hand. This is after only 3 months of consistent training.

I am interested in Japanese jujitsu, but there just isn't any information about it out there.

For those of you who have experience-

1. How is the cardio in Japanese jujitsu?

2. Is there a lot of grip training that would lead to arthritis?

Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

with anything approaching sensible level of progression, grip training should not lead to arthritis, gripping is more or less the only think hands do, apart from picking your nose and work a remote control, though excessive texing or channel hopping could be a issue

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One thing that will help in your research is to realize that Japanese Jujutsu is not a style. It's an extensive family of arts, none of which is named just "Japanese Jujutsu."

Generally speaking, you can divide that family into two large divisions.

Koryu (old school) arts are those created before 1868. They generally carry a lot of cultural trappings which would seem foreign to most modern students (even modern Japanese). Koryu jujutsu styles are pretty diverse in terms of their content: some were designed for civilian use, some for the battlefield. They will have an approach to training which is very different from BJ or most other modern arts. Koryu schools are hard to find and very selective regarding who they will allow to join. Here's a video for Takenouchi Ryu, one of the oldest surviving schools of jujutsu:

Gendai (modern) arts are those created from 1868 on. There aren't a lot of extant gendai Japanese arts which still use the "jujutsu" moniker. The most widespread Japanese gendai arts from the jujutsu family are Judo and Aikido, both of which have discarded the jujutsu name, but absolutely come from that family. There's also Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu (the parent art of Aikido), which presents itself as koryu, but was probably created in the modern era. There are also jujutsu arts taught within the Bujinkan and its derivatives (Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc). These arts go back to the koryu era but are usually not taught in such a traditional way. One of our members, @gpseymour, teaches a gendai system (Nihon Goshin Aikido) which was created in Japan but has since gone extinct there and is only taught outside that country. Wado Ryu is a Japanese karate style which is really just as much a jujutsu style. (It was created as a blend of karate and jujutsu and originally was named Shinshu Wadoryu Karate-Jujutsu.)

Most schools in the West which bill themselves as "Japanese Jujutsu" are actually teaching systems of jujutsu which were developed outside of Japan, just as BJJ was. Most often these were derived from Judo (as BJJ was originally) and/or Aikido, with possible influences from other arts such as Karate. Danzan ryu is a popular system which could at least make a credible claim to being "Japanese" in that it was founded by a Japanese man. However, he did so while living in Hawaii and incorporated elements of non-Japanese arts such as Lua, Escrima, Boxing, and wrestling. A better description would be "Japanese-American jujutsu." Danzan Ryu has a number of spin-off arts such as Small Circle Jujutsu.
Danzan Ryu:

Small Circle Jujutsu:

The degree to which a jujutsu school will work your cardio and your grips will largely depend on how much time they dedicate to Judo/BJJ style live randori. That will range from "not at all" to "all the time."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Holy cow, three months? I wonder if the school you attended was simply engaging in reckless training practices.

It could be the school is throwing new students into the deep end with insufficient preparation. It could also be that the student is sparring too aggressively and paying the price. Or both. Or they could just be unlucky.

To the OP: I'm 54 years old and have been training BJJ for about 20 years and other arts for 17 years before that. I don't have cauliflower ear. I don't have scarred eyes. I have a bit of arthritis, but probably no more than I would have at this age without BJJ. If you and your training partners approach training in a careful, intelligent manner then it shouldn't damage you that much that quickly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One thing that will help in your research is to realize that Japanese Jujutsu is not a style. It's an extensive family of arts, none of which is named just "Japanese Jujutsu."

Generally speaking, you can divide that family into two large divisions.

Koryu (old school) arts are those created before 1868. They generally carry a lot of cultural trappings which would seem foreign to most modern students (even modern Japanese). Koryu jujutsu styles are pretty diverse in terms of their content: some were designed for civilian use, some for the battlefield. They will have an approach to training which is very different from BJ or most other modern arts. Koryu schools are hard to find and very selective regarding who they will allow to join. Here's a video for Takenouchi Ryu, one of the oldest surviving schools of jujutsu:

Gendai (modern) arts are those created from 1868 on. There aren't a lot of extant gendai Japanese arts which still use the "jujutsu" moniker. The most widespread Japanese gendai arts from the jujutsu family are Judo and Aikido, both of which have discarded the jujutsu name, but absolutely come from that family. There's also Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu (the parent art of Aikido), which presents itself as koryu, but was probably created in the modern era. There are also jujutsu arts taught within the Bujinkan and its derivatives (Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc). These arts go back to the koryu era but are usually not taught in such a traditional way. One of our members, @gpseymour, teaches a gendai system (Nihon Goshin Aikido) which was created in Japan but has since gone extinct there and is only taught outside that country. Wado Ryu is a Japanese karate style which is really just as much a jujutsu style. (It was created as a blend of karate and jujutsu and originally was named Shinshu Wadoryu Karate-Jujutsu.)

Most schools in the West which bill themselves as "Japanese Jujutsu" are actually teaching systems of jujutsu which were developed outside of Japan, just as BJJ was. Most often these were derived from Judo (as BJJ was originally) and/or Aikido, with possible influences from other arts such as Karate. Danzan ryu is a popular system which could at least make a credible claim to being "Japanese" in that it was founded by a Japanese man. However, he did so while living in Hawaii and incorporated elements of non-Japanese arts such as Lua, Escrima, Boxing, and wrestling. A better description would be "Japanese-American jujutsu." Danzan Ryu has a number of spin-off arts such as Small Circle Jujutsu.
Danzan Ryu:

Small Circle Jujutsu:

The degree to which a jujutsu school will work your cardio and your grips will largely depend on how much time they dedicate to Judo/BJJ style live randori. That will range from "not at all" to "all the time."

All this makes me wonder what style I was training in the early 70s. Interesting, thanks Tony

 

[Tony Dismukes]

with anything approaching sensible level of progression, grip training should not lead to arthritis, gripping is more or less the only think hands do, apart from picking your nose and work a remote control, though excessive texing or channel hopping could be a issue

The thing that leads many Judo/BJJ competitors to have messed up fingers isn't the grip strength training. Rather it's grip fighting, where you're holding on to a sleeve or collar with all your might and your opponent rips it out of your grasp (possibly accompanied by impact to the gripping hand). That sort of action, done repetitively with high volume and intensity, can lead to damaged finger joints. I've avoided too much trouble along those lines by not building my personal style around gripping the gi, but I did get my thumb broken a couple of years back by my training partner while he was stripping my grip on his sleeve.

 

[wab25]

Danzan Ryu:

Hey!!! I know those guys... I have taken many classes from them over the years. Both are excellent instructors.

Note: I guess it didn't quote the video...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hey!!! I know those guys... I have taken many classes from them over the years. Both are excellent instructors.

Note: I guess it didn't quote the video...

Yeah, I was thinking that you could answer any specific questions from the OP regarding Danzan Ryu. I trained in one of the DR spin-off arts a while back, but I don't know how much they diverged from the original art.

 

[Deleted member 40465]

Thank you Tony. That was my experience also, grip fighting. Right hand deep in their gi when they pivoted their shoulder, came close to dislocation of index finger, swelled up like a sausage. It may recover one day. I had a superb armbar defense also (for someone who's less than a white belt) which led to my hand feeling the same way.

 

[Martial D]

I recently gave up on Brazilian jujitsu. I love the sport, but my body is mangled - cauliflower ear, scar tissue on my eye, beginning of arthritis on my finger/hand. This is after only 3 months of consistent training.

I am interested in Japanese jujitsu, but there just isn't any information about it out there.

For those of you who have experience-

1. How is the cardio in Japanese jujitsu?

2. Is there a lot of grip training that would lead to arthritis?

Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

I'm calling BS on this one. Been doing MMA and bjj for quite some time. If you really have these injuries after a couple months your teacher was garbage, and your school was garbage.

 

[Deleted member 40465]

I'm calling BS on this one. Been doing MMA and bjj for quite some time. If you really have these injuries after a couple months your teacher was garbage, and your school was garbage.

LOL ignore the troll everybody.

 

[Headhunter]

LOL ignore the troll everybody.

I don't agree with everything he says but he's not a troll and I agree with him. If you've got that many injuries that quick then something isn't right....oh and piece of advice coming on here calling people trolls isn't going to make you very popular on here....plus that's against the site rules

 

[Deleted member 40465]

I didn't realize that the term I used was against site rules, my apologies.

You said it in a way that was not disrespectable to anybody. That was fine.

I don't agree with everything he says but he's not a troll and I agree with him. If you've got that many injuries that quick then something isn't right....oh and piece of advice coming on here calling people trolls isn't going to make you very popular on here....plus that's against the site rules

 

[Deleted member 40465]

I don't agree with everything he says but he's not a troll and I agree with him. If you've got that many injuries that quick then something isn't right....oh and piece of advice coming on here calling people trolls isn't going to make you very popular on here....plus that's against the site rules

The point of the thread was to find out information about traditional jujitsu, not information about the school I already left. He didn't say anything constructive about the topic at all, only insulted the school and my coach who is a good friend of mine, and mentor who he knows nothing about.

 

[Headhunter]

The point of the thread was to find out information about traditional jujitsu, not information about the school I already left. He didn't say anything constructive about the topic at all, only insulted the school and my coach who is a good friend of mine, and mentor who he knows nothing about.

He's stating an opinion based on evidence. I mean I'm older than most at my bjj club and have trained 4 times a week for 2 years and never had a single injury as I said if you get that many injuries in 3 months and it's not a common occurrence for that sport then you need to start looking at the instructor and the school and anyway he was more saying what your saying isn't true rather than insulting the club his first words "I call bs on this"

 

[drop bear]

Anyway JJJ will either look like Aikido or judo depending on the school.

Sorta.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Anyway JJJ will either look like Aikido or judo depending on the school.

Sorta.

That's a reasonably accurate, concise description. I like it. I'd just add that some manage to look like both, depending what they're doing that day.

 

[jobo]

Anyway JJJ will either look like Aikido or judo depending on the school.

Sorta.

when I briefly did jjj, it looked exactly like judo, except when you got them on the floor you punched them repeatedly in the groin

 

[wab25]

Yeah, I was thinking that you could answer any specific questions from the OP regarding Danzan Ryu. I trained in one of the DR spin-off arts a while back, but I don't know how much they diverged from the original art.

Unfortunately... there have not been any specific questions to answer. But, you have summed it up nicely... there is quite a range available.

Its hard to say what the "original art" was. This is because Okazaki was always training, learning and adapting. His students would reach instructor level, then come to the main land to open a school at different times. What Okazaki was teaching changed between the different instructors coming over. As a result, we get lots of variation, and not just the "block in front stance or block in back stance" variety. One lineage will teach a forward hip throw, gain top position and apply submission. Another lineage will teach the same art by propping uke's knee, while sitting back at a diagonal causing uke to fall forward while you entangle his arm with your legs and apply the submission as he hits. Both techniques were taught by Okazaki as that same art, at different times. So, which is the "original" or "non-diverged" version?

Whats more important is to see how they teach and practice. Both ways of doing the art can be effective, if you learn to do them against a resisting opponent. At one end of the spectrum you have people like Willy Cahill teaching Danzan Ryu: Willy Cahill You can also find people straying very close to the "no touch knock out / throw" end of the spectrum as well. (these are the guys that might offer some resistance in a fight with a wet paper bag, though not much) It really depends on the particular school you find and who is teaching it. (even with in the same organization)