Freestyle Sparring

[chufeng]

Hello all...

Can someone please explain the benefit of "freestyle sparring" to me.

In most (not all) schools that use this as a means to teach their art, the sparring in no way looks like the forms that are required for testing.

Shouldn't sparring technique at least resemble the forms?
If it doesn't, does that mean the forms are pointless, or does that mean the sparring is not reflective of the art?

Why would one spend so much time learning kata and bunkai and then get out on the sparring floor and do bad kick-boxing?

I am curious.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hi Chufeng,

I spent many hours sparing a couple of decades ago but do not have my own students train this way at all. The main reason is that sparring encourages a fight to continue, and I'm trying to get the fight shut down as soon as possible.

If you're into competition then maybe it has some relevence, but other than that It's of little use in my opinion.

Mike.

 

[yilisifu]

Excellent post! Actually, sparring SHOULD look like "form." The punches and kicks should look EXACTLY like they do in form.

Sadly, this is often not the case in today's modern martial arts world. Forms look...well...neat and clean and all that, but once sparring begins, it often looks like a kickboxing match and the movements bear very little resemblance to form.

This indicates that the student (and possibly the teacher) have not understood the "connection" between form and fighting. Many have some pretty good excuses for it...but the truth is, it's wrong. In sparring, one should strive to execute classical, textbook-perfect technique.

Sadly, the emphasis is too often on "winning" the bout rather than developing correct martial art technique. This has led to a degeneration of real martial skill everywhere.

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, for what it's worth, my take on the whole thing is simply that in competition (and I'm not saying competition is bad) you are trying to win, as opposed to real life where you are trying to survive.

I am willing to bite right through a guy's neck on the street. Somehow I doubt I'd get away with that in the ring.

Hence, the techniques represent the venue in which they are performed...

Gotta go. Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla is on SciFi Channel now...

Gambarimasu.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Hi Chufeng,

I spent many hours sparing a couple of decades ago but do not have my own students train this way at all. The main reason is that sparring encourages a fight to continue, and I'm trying to get the fight shut down as soon as possible.

If you're into competition then maybe it has some relevence, but other than that It's of little use in my opinion.

Mike.

You can put on full protective gears and train to spar where you stop/break whenever a KO-effective strike is executed. Then you would be training/sparring for effective kill strikes.

 

[JDenz]

That is because regular sparring turns it into a fight situation. In that kind of situation stress sets in and things change. If you can't keep technique sparring chances are you won't be able to in a fight either.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by chufeng
In most (not all) schools that use this as a means to teach their art, the sparring in no way looks like the forms that are required for testing.

Shouldn't sparring technique at least resemble the forms?
If it doesn't, does that mean the forms are pointless, or does that mean the sparring is not reflective of the art?

The should look very similar if not the same in my opinion. I don't think one should learn "two arts" one for when they are doing this and one for that etc. In American Kenpo, for example, many of the forms coantain the exact techniques. If the techniques somehow end up looking differnt depeneidng on wheather you are doing them in a form or not then something isn't right.

That said, obviosly sparring will always look somewhat different because of the environment, rules etc.

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by chufeng
Hello all...

Can someone please explain the benefit of "freestyle sparring" to me.

In most (not all) schools that use this as a means to teach their art, the sparring in no way looks like the forms that are required for testing.

Shouldn't sparring technique at least resemble the forms?
If it doesn't, does that mean the forms are pointless, or does that mean the sparring is not reflective of the art?

It kinda depends on the sparring. Usually when the sparring's gotten to the point it looks like bad kickboxing, it's been a move towards safer sparring methods to reduce liability, so the sparring is no longer especially reflective of the art. It's still nice to develop a sense of distance, working techniques into something cohesive (as far as it'll allow you to etc) though. Just for encouraging movement and spacing etc alone, that's worth more than not sparring at all.

On the other hand, stuff like keeping your hands up rather than chambering your opposing fist on your hip, maintaining unrealistically deep stances, or trying to work things like the ITF's sine wave into a street situation's not going to help you fight better. Forms are an aspect of training, not the whole of it in that respect from what I understand.

 

[Mike Clarke]

Kenneth,

My point was not how you accomodate the practice of 'sparring'.
You can set up any number of ways to 'spar', including a no-hold-bared kind of situation , if that's what you want?
But my point is that the attitude [mind set] one has when sparring and the attitude one has fighting, are two different things.

As for putting protective clothing on before engaging in a sparring session. Well that only removes you even further from the mind set needed in a fight in my opinion. So once again, I'm left wondering what real value comes from such training.

In Okinawa I did plenty of 'iri-kumi' sparring at Higaonna Morio sensei's dojo. Apart from fine tuning my sense of courage, and building up my ability to take a knock, It did little for my fighting ability as a whole.

Jiyu-ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite are much better ways to practice fighting and hone ones skills [in my opinion]. Sparring just keeps you engaged for longer than any real fight would ever last.

As I said, it's okay if you're a 'sports person', but if you're a budo-ka, then you need to be looking elswere to improve your skills.
Just my opinion of course

Mike.

 

[SMAC]

Forms teach you a lot about how to move your body efficiently, for instance correct blocking techniques using your hips, shoulders and opposite arm to generate reaction force. This is v.difficult to teach people with no experience of traditional blocks as freestyle fighters prefer to parry, dodge or simply absorb the blow. In this way i think forms are very good.
However, only by sparring can you really appreciate that your oppponent has their own agenda. Its much harder to strike them when they are trying to equally hard to hit you. Secondly, in my opinion sparring should not look like a form. If it does it will only be effective in defending against someone fighting in the same style using the techniques it was designed to counter against. I understand that this is true in any system that has rules but more freestyle sparring encourages you to train your reactions better.
Lastly sparring, if practised, should be enjoyable and promote, fitness and friendship between club members.
SMAC

 

[JDenz]

Maybe I don't understand what is meant by freestyle sparring but I get that it is sparring without gear and similar to MMA rules? If that is the case I don't know how much more real that you can get without seriously hurting each other.

 

[SMAC]

The kind of freestyle i was refering to is basically kickboxing and tends to be semi contact.

 

[JDenz]

What about you chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by SMAC
However, only by sparring can you really appreciate that your oppponent has their own agenda. Its much harder to strike them when they are trying to equally hard to hit you.

This is true. It does make a difference when training with a cooperative partner a la aikido, and when training against someone who is actively trying to remove one of your lungs...

Secondly, in my opinion sparring should not look like a form. If it does it will only be effective in defending against someone fighting in the same style using the techniques it was designed to counter against.

While I could see this being nearly true in some situations, the whole point is that sparring is an unrealistic representation of fighting, and while still not being 100% realistic, one step sparring is far closer (while retaining a modicum of safety) than bouncing around with marshmallow pads on all of your extremities.

The entire premise of "real" martial arts is not a series of 2 minute fights with 30 second breaks in between, but rather the baddie tries to take your melon off your shoulders (or some other equally nasty thing), and you respond by introducing him to his ancestors prematurely. No bouncing, no mulitple engagements of traded blows. He strikes, you defend, his relatives bury him. End of story.

I understand that this is true in any system that has rules but more freestyle sparring encourages you to train your reactions better.

Well, this is handled just fine with one step sparring by making sure the "attacker" is doing just that and not trying to hold the defender's hand gently and lovingly...

Lastly sparring, if practised, should be enjoyable and promote, fitness and friendship between club members.
SMAC

Or you could all go out to eat, have a run, go to the gym... all excellent means by which to promote fitness, fun and friendship without jeapordizing someone's safety or damaging the real intent of martial training.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Kenneth,

My point was not how you accomodate the practice of 'sparring'.
You can set up any number of ways to 'spar', including a no-hold-bared kind of situation , if that's what you want?
But my point is that the attitude [mind set] one has when sparring and the attitude one has fighting, are two different things.

As for putting protective clothing on before engaging in a sparring session. Well that only removes you even further from the mind set needed in a fight in my opinion. So once again, I'm left wondering what real value comes from such training.

In Okinawa I did plenty of 'iri-kumi' sparring at Higaonna Morio sensei's dojo. Apart from fine tuning my sense of courage, and building up my ability to take a knock, It did little for my fighting ability as a whole.

Jiyu-ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite are much better ways to practice fighting and hone ones skills [in my opinion]. Sparring just keeps you engaged for longer than any real fight would ever last.

As I said, it's okay if you're a 'sports person', but if you're a budo-ka, then you need to be looking elswere to improve your skills.
Just my opinion of course

Mike.

Mike

1. Of course you are correct that sparring is a far cry from real fighting. Not only that you should end real fight in seconds but also in terms of adrenaline stress response.

2. The full protective gears on the opponent, allow you to engage in full speed and full force attack practice. I think that is a splendid idea. The person wearing the gears can go super aggressive against you. You got to defend and attack as realisticly as possible. THe session would be mostly for your practice benefits. You can take your turns to be the punching bag later. lol

Of course if you are going to kid yourself with all these protective gears on you, then you are doing just that. I think we are all mature enough to avoid that.

 

[Baoquan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Well, this is handled just fine with one step sparring by making sure the "attacker" is doing just that and not trying to hold the defender's hand gently and lovingly...

I'm assuming you mean a predefined attack/open response in "one-step sparring" - i.e. you throw a haymaker, i make u look like an *** any way i can - please correct me if i'm wrong...

If thats true, isn't that another form of cooperation? I like free-play because it promotes free-association, and less assumption than predefined action-response application.

That being said, it should be used in moderation WITH other forms of sparring (one step is great).

Yeah, its a damn shame when everyone ends up kick boxing badly instead of using correct technique, but isn't it up to the teacher to show them how and why the technique really works, full-speed?

 

[chufeng]

At the beginning and intermediate levels, a predetermined attack is used...

At the senior levels, an unannounced free-style attack (he can throw anything he wants, whenever he wants) is thrown.

In freestyle three-step drill, three unannounced attacks are thrown in succession.

"free-style" sparring is done maybe every six months or so...and the goal is to make what you've been drilling work...funny thing, the free-style matches don't last very long...the opponent is neutralized fairly quickly...and it does resemble the technique out of our forms. And I agree that it is sometimes necessary to do this to add an additional element to the training.

As far as full-blast techniques (marshmallow mittens or not) we really can't do that...We have to pull back on the actual force projected at the last instant or we would hurt each other...

It seems that most of you agree that free-style has its pluses...but the down side is the bad kick-boxing scenario...

Thanks for everyone's response.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[JDenz]

Why is kickboxing bad? Those dudes in K-1 arn't no joke. I think if anyone of those guys hit I would be out for the count.

 

[Marginal]

I think the idea is, Kickboxing's great as long as you're learning kickboxing. If you're learning something else like Kung Fu or TKD etc though, odds are you're not learning kickboxing that'd stand up to specifically trained kickboxing etc.

 

[Baoquan]

yeah, i dont think any one is ragging on KB, just the bad KB impersonations often seen in other MA classes when free-sparring.