Rote combinations vs. freestyle combinations

[skribs]

How many of the combinations you do in your martial art are rote memorization of combinations that are proven to be effective, vs. freestyle combinations that come to you as the fight progresses?

For example, jab-cross or jab-reverse (depending on your terminology) is the typical 1-2 punch combination. Same with something like hook-uppercut or a 1-2-3-4 of jab-cross-hook-uppercut.

Similar, in Taekwondo, we have a lot of kicks that play really well off a roundhouse kick (basically anything that turns). So typical combos could include RHK -> Back Kick; RHK -> Spinning Hook Kick; RHK -> Tornado Kick.

A rote combination could be something in the curriculum (i.e. a common exercise or a testing requirement), or it could be a combination you really like and thus drill over and over again on your own.

My school has a large amount of rote-memorized combinations for both punches and kicks. We also do a lot of drills with different combinations (which are not meant to be memorized), and freestyle drills and sparring. During my freestyle, about half of the combos I throw are rote combos and half are freestyle. In sparring, it's maybe closer to 25% rote and 75% freestyle.

I'm just curious what the ratio is for you guys for rote combinations vs. freestyle combinations, both in your school's curriculum, in your personal practice sessions, and in your fights.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

interesting question
[all rote vs freestyle , a little hard to say because some free style combos might mimic rote combos]
for kids classes maybe 80:20
for adult classes maybe 60:40
for personal practice maybe 40:60
for personal sparing maybe 20:80

 

[Danny T]

Rote combo for us are striking templates.
For this example this is a 3 punch combo. Kicks, Knees, Elbows, Clinching, Throw, and Takedowns can be added.
At higher levels there are combos used for set ups, the actual attack, and follow ups to continue the attack or to cover the egress as well as countering the opponent's attack and follow ups. Footwork and angling is based on the setup, the targeting, the follow up or egress.

J-C-H J=Jab or front hand punch
Double J-C C=Rear Straight punch
C-H-C H=Hook punch
F/H-C-F/H OH= Overhand punch
R/UC-H-C UC=Uppercut punch
J-F/H-C F/=Front hand
R/OH-F/UC-R/OH R/=Rear hand
F/H-F/UC-C

-Level changes
-Full beat, 1/2 beat, 1/4 beat
-Behind timing attacks
-On time attacks
-Ahead of time attacks.

Mixing up the combos is encouraged:

J=Jab or front hand punch
C=Rear Straight punch
H=Hook punch
OH= Overhand punch
UC=Uppercut punch
F/=Front hand
R/=Rear hand

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How many of the combinations you do in your martial art are rote memorization of combinations that are proven to be effective, vs. freestyle combinations that come to you as the fight progresses?

For the striking art, the "freestyle combinations" may be possible. But for the wrestling art, the "freestyle combinations" is difficult. If you don't train a combo 10,000 times, it's impossible for you to make it work on the mat.

 

[skribs]

For the striking art, the "freestyle combinations" may be possible. But for the wrestling art, the "freestyle combinations" is difficult. If you don't train a combo 10,000 times, it's impossible for you to make it work on the mat.

I'd have thought the other way. Grappling is so much more complex that you need to be able to adapt to what's going on. If your jab fails to connect, then often a cross or hook will both achieve the desired result. But if you're trying a throw and your opponent moves away from your leverage, then you have to react to that change and apply a different technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But if you're trying a throw and your opponent moves away from your leverage, then you have to react to that change and apply a different technique.

This is why when you attack your opponent's leading leg, if he moves back, you attack his other leg. As long as your forward stepping synchronize with your opponent's backward stepping, the distance will remain the same.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

For the striking art, the "freestyle combinations" may be possible. But for the wrestling art, the "freestyle combinations" is difficult. If you don't train a combo 10,000 times, it's impossible for you to make it work on the mat

I see what you mean, the actual pieces of the throw, lock, submission, etc need great repetition but there is so much movement that you need to be able to transition freely and fluidly freestyling off of their movement to finally get something that works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there is so much movement that you need to be able to transition freely and fluidly freestyling off of their movement to finally get something that works.

When you stand in front of a lake, all you will need is just a cup of water from that lake.

Technique A may be able to set up many techniques. Since our life time is too short, we may only be able to master few combos instead of all combos.

 

[wab25]

For the striking art, the "freestyle combinations" may be possible. But for the wrestling art, the "freestyle combinations" is difficult. If you don't train a combo 10,000 times, it's impossible for you to make it work on the mat.

Most every time I have taken classes with high level Judo players... they teach combination throws. Against another Judo player, you will very rarely get your first throw... they see it coming. So you need combinations of throws, such that their counter to your first throw is the set up for the next throw and so on. We start with one throw, then add the counter. Then add the second throw after the counter. Then add the second counter, then the third throw and so on.

Commonly, you start with a foot sweep, then a reaping throw to the rear. Then we work a foot sweep, followed by a hip throw. Now if they counter by moving back you are good and if they counter by coming forward, you are good.

I have been able to apply some of the combos in randori with less than 10,000 reps of any particular combo. Once you start to get the feel, of how the throwing combinations work... you can start to "freestyle" and insert different throws and or extend you combo.

I even hear about wrestler chaining together their take down attempts. In my mind, these take down chains are combinations. BJJ guys chain their submission attempts... another form of combination.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Beginners rely on rote memorization.
Advanced understand the principles underlying the things they memorized.

 

[skribs]

Beginners rely on rote memorization.
Advanced understand the principles underlying the things they memorized.

So are you saying that you don't go to the heavy bag and pound out the same combination over and over again to work on those principles? If you go to a heavy bag, every combination is different?

Or at the very least, variations on the same combo?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So are you saying that you don't go to the heavy bag and pound out the same combination over and over again to work on those principles? If you go to a heavy bag, every combination is different?

Or at the very least, variations on the same combo?

Correct. Or at least, I try not to. If I find myself falling into predictable patterns, I consciously change it up.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Correct. Or at least, I try not to. If I find myself falling into predictable patterns, I consciously change it up.

Me too. I hate to get that staccato going. Should not sound like music.

 

[skribs]

Me too. I hate to get that staccato going. Should not sound like music.

My music doesn't even sound like music.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For the striking art, the "freestyle combinations" may be possible. But for the wrestling art, the "freestyle combinations" is difficult. If you don't train a combo 10,000 times, it's impossible for you to make it work on the mat.

I don't agree. Combinations, in grappling, are just transitions from one thing to the next (which may include strikes). If you know how to do a move from a given position, it doesn't matter how you got there - it's still available. So, I can (and do) easily transition among techniques in orders I don't specifically practice, so long as the transition approximates a recognized starting position for the next technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most every time I have taken classes with high level Judo players... they teach combination throws. Against another Judo player, you will very rarely get your first throw... they see it coming. So you need combinations of throws, such that their counter to your first throw is the set up for the next throw and so on. We start with one throw, then add the counter. Then add the second throw after the counter. Then add the second counter, then the third throw and so on.

Commonly, you start with a foot sweep, then a reaping throw to the rear. Then we work a foot sweep, followed by a hip throw. Now if they counter by moving back you are good and if they counter by coming forward, you are good.

I have been able to apply some of the combos in randori with less than 10,000 reps of any particular combo. Once you start to get the feel, of how the throwing combinations work... you can start to "freestyle" and insert different throws and or extend you combo.

I even hear about wrestler chaining together their take down attempts. In my mind, these take down chains are combinations. BJJ guys chain their submission attempts... another form of combination.

And in that practice, what they're actually developing is the ability to recognize the transitions. Once they reach that point, it doesn't have to be the same combination.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So are you saying that you don't go to the heavy bag and pound out the same combination over and over again to work on those principles? If you go to a heavy bag, every combination is different?

Or at the very least, variations on the same combo?

Some folks still do repeat those. But it's not for the purpose of memorization, but to try to develop parts of it more smoothly. With strikes, combinations sometimes link without respect to the opponent's action (this can only occur if they don't manage to interrupt the combination). So the transitions will be very much the same and can be worked on a heavy bag. But I think most folks who reach an advanced level and continue to work those types of drills are more focused on working out some kink, using the drill for speed, or using it for a workout/warmup.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't agree. Combinations, in grappling, are just transitions from one thing to the next (which may include strikes). If you know how to do a move from a given position, it doesn't matter how you got there - it's still available. So, I can (and do) easily transition among techniques in orders I don't specifically practice, so long as the transition approximates a recognized starting position for the next technique.

If one has never trained "hip throw, inner hook" combo before, do you think one day on the wrestling mat suddenly he can just do it? I know I can't.

 

[wab25]

If one has never trained "hip throw, inner hook" combo before, do you think one day on the wrestling mat suddenly he can just do it?

If he can do the hip throw and the inner hook... then sure he could. As long as he understands how to chain together throws. Or as Gerry says, if he understands the transitions.

I have found many a "new combo" through randori. First you have to understand how the counter to your first throw sets him up for a type of secondary throw. (this counter leads to a forward throw, this one leads to a back throw, this one leads to a sweep, this one to a reaping throw...) Now the better you understand the throws, the more combinations you will be able to find. Also, experience in feeling how your opponent is moving, will give you "new" options. The next question then sometimes, is harder to figure out. I usually do hip throw -> inner hook... but this time I did hip throw -> to rear throw... why? And what made it work? How do I set that combo up? Usually, in the discovery process for figuring that out, I find ways to do other combos, or insert other techniques.

This is the grappling equivalent of Skrib's "Freestyling" strikers. You learn the rote patterns, to learn the principles and reasons for combos. Then, as you get advanced you apply the principles and reasons you learned, inserting techniques when necessary. Since you are now applying the underlying principles, you are free to use whatever technique gets the job done in this specific situation. If you applied the principles correctly, you can even do this with a "new" combo, on your first try on the mat... striking, throwing or submitting. It may not work every time... but being successful at this should be a familiar occurrence for upper level students.

 

[CB Jones]

My son has probably 7 or 8 different combination plus variations in them that he uses.

During fights what he looks for are the angles he wants to enter with the combo and the angle he wants to exit from.

Mix in feints and and singles and it works really well for him.