Freedom, anarchy, and consequences...

[jks9199]

Inspired by Sukerkin's thread about the End of Page 3... and before I go any further, I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not defending or supporting any suggestion that a woman's style of dress, or anybody's legal actions amount to "asking" to be a victim, or giving someone permission to make them a victim. You should be able to wear what you want and you should be able to leave your stuff around, and have it left alone because it's YOURS, and not someone else's.

That said... sometimes, our choices may indeed have some level of consequences. Larry Niven's story Cloak of Anarchy kind of highlights what I'm trying to say. If I go to the wrong neighborhood, and try to stare folks down -- I better be ready to either deliver or receive a beatdown. A girl goes to a club, wears next to nothing, don't complain that she's noticed -- and be prepared to deal with the attention. If you walk around flaunting $1000 bills -- you'll probably be mugged. If you leave your stuff unlocked when you go inside for a cup of coffee -- it may well not be there when you come back to it.

I've never understood the reasoning behind the woman who goes to the gym, wearing a spandex leotard thing that fits tighter than white on rice -- but complains if a guy notices. Don't wanna be looked at? Wear baggy sweats and a t-shirt. Not a pair of shorts that barely drop below your butt and a sports bra. Hey -- if I show up in spandex and no shirt, people are gonna stare. Maybe vomit, too. And I'm NOT saying leering or harassing her is OK -- but she can't be unrealistic about it, either. Guys (and some gals) are gonna take notice. There's a chance one or two will need to be whacked by a clue-by-4, too. If you're going to lay it out -- be prepared for the consequences.

I've got my asbestos undies on... flame away.

 

[granfire]

Ok, now I think I want to see you in spandax and topless, just to be able to discuss this topic intelligently....

As to the actual topic:
yes, no, maybe?

I mean yes, you dress a certain way, people will look.
not because they are jerks, but because it's hardwired into our brains.
Yes, I look at a guy's butt.


However, acting on it is a different matter.
I think it would be totally uncalled for if I slapped that guy on the buttocks or made advances

The same that i do not wish to be jumped, thank you very much.

Actions cause reactions, cause and consequences....

 

[jezr74]

Think Granfire summed it up.

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[Carol]

Think Granfire summed it up.

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Yes she did.





JKS in spandex. *nods*


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[DennisBreene]

That was short and sweet.

 

[Tgace]

Ok, now I think I want to see you in spandax and topless, just to be able to discuss this topic intelligently....

As to the actual topic:
yes, no, maybe?

I mean yes, you dress a certain way, people will look.
not because they are jerks, but because it's hardwired into our brains.
Yes, I look at a guy's butt.


However, acting on it is a different matter.
I think it would be totally uncalled for if I slapped that guy on the buttocks or made advances

The same that i do not wish to be jumped, thank you very much.

Actions cause reactions, cause and consequences....

I don't think he's implying that it's "called for"...he's just saying the "shock" that it happens seems a tad misplaced.

I "should" be able to walk the street with $100 bills sticking out of my pocket. Nobody has a "right" to mug me if I do....but is it "unexpected" when I do get mugged? Does that money hanging out "excuse" the mugger? Did I "deserve" to get mugged? No. Should I share "blame"? No.

The reality of the world is what it is...some bad people will do bad things. Some of the things we do draw those bad people to us.

 

[jks9199]

Ok, now I think I want to see you in spandax and topless, just to be able to discuss this topic intelligently....

No, you do not. There are some sights no one should have to see! Especially since once seen, they can't be unseen.

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[Steve]

There is a big difference between being noticed and everything beyond that. Personally, in a news article about a rape, what the woman was wearing is irrelevant and inappropriate. Yet it is often included in the first few lines of the article, if not the headline. There was one article (I'll link it if I can find it) about a 12 year old girl who was raped by high school boys. The article made a point of emphasizing that she was wearing makeup.

The point is, if a woman is wearing athletic apparel in a gym and guys are doing anything more than stealing discreet looks, it should be stopped. I see an athletic tank and shorts as being MILES away from flashing Benjamins in a bad neighborhood. There is no comparison. Point is, as a society, we are rape apologists. Whether it's to imply that money was involved or she was drunk or she was dressed to sexy or she had a boob job or any of these things, if a woman doesn't want to have sex, it's her call. There's just no question.

I don't know if everyone's aware of what's going on with the Lloyd Irvin camp right now in BJJ, but a sickness has been exposed. The layers started peeling back when, just a few months ago, a female was alone at a club. She ran into a few of her training buddies from the local Lloyd Irvin school. They kept drinking and then offered her a ride to their house, where she was going to crash. She knew these guys, worked with one of them in the school almost daily. They raped her in a parking garage and left her unconscious on the ground. Fortunately, there was a video camera in the garage and they are being prosecuted.

 

[Steve]

I don't think he's implying that it's "called for"...he's just saying the "shock" that it happens seems a tad misplaced.

I "should" be able to walk the street with $100 bills sticking out of my pocket. Nobody has a "right" to mug me if I do....but is it "unexpected" when I do get mugged? Does that money hanging out "excuse" the mugger? Did I "deserve" to get mugged? No. Should I share "blame"? No.

The reality of the world is what it is...some bad people will do bad things. Some of the things we do draw those bad people to us.

I think, where rape is involved, we often do imply that the victim shares the blame and we do find excuses for the rapist.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No, you do not. There are some sights no one should have to see! Especially since once seen, they can't be unseen.

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My wife wants me to do the whole Playgirl Burt Reynolds bear skin rug shoot. I said, no, there are laws against such things, and the camera would cry.


You bear the responsibility for your actions, to a point. Go out in something revealing, concealing, or 'different', people are going to notice and look.
If I start walking around town dressed like the 6th Doctor people are going to look....comment even.
Still doesn't give anyone permission to touch me.
I'm not responsible if they touch me, they are, for their lack of manners as best, assault at worst.
My wife used to do a lot of cosplay. Didn't give the fan boys free feel permissions though.
The one who tried found out that knees aren't supposed to go that way, and hurt when forced.

 

[Tgace]

I think, where rape is involved, we often do imply that the victim shares the blame and we do find excuses for the rapist.

I think we need to have a clear line between "blaming the victim" and using cases as cautionary tales or examples of how some behavior can increase risk.

I don't know that "a woman should be able to dress however she wants"...however true that is...she SHOULD..I don't know how that changes the predator males behavior. People should not rob, steal, cheat, etc. either.

It's a difficult topic. Better security comes with limiting your behaviors...we all have to balance how much we want to change how we live with how safe we expect to be. We all accept some risk.

 

[granfire]

I think we need to have a clear line between "blaming the victim" and using cases as cautionary tales or examples of how some behavior can increase risk.

I don't know that "a woman should be able to dress however she wants"...however true that is...she SHOULD..I don't know how that changes the predator males behavior. People should not rob, steal, cheat, etc. either.

It's a difficult topic. Better security comes with limiting your behaviors...we all have to balance how much we want to change how we live with how safe we expect to be. We all accept some risk.

On the other hand, if the statistics are correct, nearly 9 out of 10 women are not attacked by the stranger in a dark alley. They are violated by people they know and for most parts trust! If the odd bogey man attacks females, it makes the news and causes a stir.

Lik Steve's case: The young woman probably rolled many times with the guys who then went on to attack her. You don't get into that position in the dojo with people you do not trust.

Certain behaviors increase risk - aside from rape, and let's not forget, guys can be violated as well - like being intoxicated, being in a bad neighborhood....or simply letting your guard down.

Consider that stealing and murdering are among the world's first laws prohibiting it: If it was not in human nature, these rules would not have been written out.


Does that excuse the perpetrators? Nope.
Because we know better.
And because we know better we also try to find excuses why this one time it wasn't our fault to do wrong.

So what are we to do?
Well, we minimize risk.
We don't go to bad neighborhoods if we can avoid it.
And we don't go alone, even if that can pose it's own set of risks (see above).

Seems we have to re-examine our society a little more, and take it back from the thug culture it has sunk into, making higher values more attractive again.

 

[Tgace]

Seems we have to re-examine our society a little more, and take it back from the thug culture it has sunk into, making higher values more attractive again.

When you discover how to do that I will give up my worldly possessions and become your disciple.

 

[Tgace]

And of all of our risky behaviors....getting blasted drunk is probably one of the most dangerous.

 

[granfire]

When you discover how to do that I will give up my worldly possessions and become your disciple.

I know, right!

 

[Steve]

And of all of our risky behaviors....getting blasted drunk is probably one of the most dangerous.

QFT. But, you can't have consensual sex with someone who's unable to consent. And while getting stinking drunk is very stupid, men who take advantage should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That the woman was drunk shouldn't be a first paragraph, news article lead in. The report should never start like this: "After a long night of partying at a friend's house, a heavily intoxicated local teen was sexually assaulted by members of the varsity football team. The victim, dressed in a short skirt and sheer blouse, and wearing makeup, knew the victims from the school. The District Attorney's office is deciding whether to prosecute the teens as adults." Yet, that's how most of these articles are written. We often know far more about why the victim invited the rape than we do about the rapists.

One of my buddies is a lawyer and a female jiu jitsu practitioner down in Texas. She has always been an active promoter and supporter of BJJ for women, and since the New Year's Eve rape in New York, has been very vocal and active in exposing the Lloyd Irvin situation. http://georgetteoden.blogspot.com/

As a result, I've seen a lot of interesting notes, articles, sound bytes and detailed analysis over the last several months. It's been very educational for me. As an aside, it also reinforced for me that most of what I said in this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...he-media-s-portrayal-of-women-martial-artists) regarding the difference between sexual and sexualized.

I'm just mentioning this, because the rape thing is on my mind. It's something that's going on currently, and so if I seem a little soapboxy about it, that's why.

 

[K-man]

When you discover how to do that I will give up my worldly possessions and become your disciple.

But are you prepared to give up your 'rights'? Some might argue that the Taliban are attempting to provide that type of society, misguided though they might be. :asian:

 

[granfire]

But are you prepared to give up your 'rights'? Some might argue that the Taliban are attempting to provide that type of society, misguided though they might be. :asian:

ah, sorry, I don't think beating women because their burka flew up counts...or relegating widows to begging in the streets....
After all, women who do not cover up are fair game to rape and kill...nope, not exactly 'good' values....more thugs for ya....

 

[Sukerkin]

A man who raises his fist to a woman, or indeed, to a smaller, weaker, man, is no man at all in my eyes. Where is the courage in dominating one who is weaker than you?

In similar vein, where is the honour, or the pleasure, in taking what is not otherwise freely shared? This is the disconnect I have always had with sexual violence in particular; I ... do ... not ... understand the twisted place in someones mind that it comes from.

 

[Tgace]

A man who raises his fist to a woman, or indeed, to a smaller, weaker, man, is no man at all in my eyes. Where is the courage in dominating one who is weaker than you?

In similar vein, where is the honour, or the pleasure, in taking what is not otherwise freely shared? This is the disconnect I have always had with sexual violence in particular; I ... do ... not ... understand the twisted place in someones mind that it comes from.

Its about power and self-centerdness.....

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