Free Education - From Birth to Death

[Makalakumu]

After reading this article...

Do you think that the concept of free education from birth to death is a good policy to support?

What would happen if the government offered vouchers for any and all education a person wished as long as they lived?

Should our society support tertiary education in the same we we support k-12?

Do we have a good system? Why? What do you think would work better?

 

[CoryKS]

There's no such thing as free education. Someone has to pay for the school, the materials, and the instructors. Perhaps you're thinking of taxpayer-funded education, in which case you are always paying for it.

 

[Carol]

Regarding the article, if the person believes that he would have been better off going to prison than going to college, then I'm not surprised he can't get a job. I wouldn't want someone whose logic is that poor in my office either.

I don't support the idea of taxpayer funded education for perpetuity...although arguably I could benefit a lot from such a policy given that I am back in school (again). There have been financial analysts that have stated that the cost of health care isn't really appreciated by many American workers due to arrangements where employers have payed for all, or all but a token, of the employee's health coverage.

I think the same cost-to-value relationship also holds true with college. When I was in college 20 years ago I found that there were many students that didn't really take their education that seriously. Now that I'm back in school 20 years later either taking classes on campus with the undergrads or working through the continuing ed department, I'm finding a major difference in the dedication and the drive of the continuing ed students as compared to the daytime full-timers.

Yes, age does make a difference (most continuing ed students are older) but I think the cost does too (most continuing ed students do not receive financial aid).

I think the overall value, quality, and effectiveness of teritary education would drop substantially if we adopted a policy of total funding of taxpayer funding tertiary education. Now in this country, intellectual capital comes to us for an education. If our quality drops, then that intellectual capital (including our own) would be going elsewhere for an education. I don't think that would be good for the country, or for our educational system.

 

[Makalakumu]

There's no such thing as free education. Someone has to pay for the school, the materials, and the instructors. Perhaps you're thinking of taxpayer-funded education, in which case you are always paying for it.

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. I forgot the quotes around "free". Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think the overall value, quality, and effectiveness of teritary education would drop substantially if we adopted a policy of total funding of taxpayer funding tertiary education.

Tertiary education is highly subsidized in France with public university students receiving nearly all tuition payments in the form of scholarships and grants from the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_France

They still have exceptionally high standards.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

They still have exceptionally high standards.

But they remain French.

 

[elder999]

When I first started attending college (35 years ago!!! ) it was at a private school, but many state schools were very nearly free for state residents. I think the SUNY schools were running less than $500/yr, and it was even less for California. Now, of course, that's all been changed, in an effort to lower taxes.......now, their tuitions have gone up as much as 70% since 2001.Of course, in-state tuition is still a good deal, just not as good as it used to be...

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

LOL Bill, You beat me to it.

People need to work for something to appreciate it. People need to have something to appreciate in order to want to work.

If you keep raising taxes to support these programs the people paying the taxes are going to give up and leave, or just throw in the towel.

Let the strong survive.. Let those that earn keep. Let those that give up go by the way side.

I remember when our country was great, it was made great by this exact thing. People had to push themselves to survive, to strive, and to get what they wanted.

Now our country is a shadow of our former selves, its because of all these damn programs that make such a huge portion of our population realize they don't have to try for anything anymore, that it will be given to them because they outnumber the can dos, and vote it that way.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

When I first started attending college (35 years ago!!! ) it was at a private school, but many state schools were very nearly free for state residents. I think the SUNY schools were running less than $500/yr, and it was even less for California. Now, of course, that's all been changed, in an effort to lower taxes.......now, their tuitions have gone up as much as 70% since 2001.Of course, in-state tuition is still a good deal, just not as good as it used to be...

Of course if your an illegal alien you get in state tuition no matter what....
and you get it free since you don't report your under the table income/or report it on a fake social security number so you qualify and recieve welfare....... so I guess this program already exists.... just not for Americans.

 

[Tez3]

But they remain French.

Pokerkat

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About:

You can't tell what Pokerkat is thinking. That's because Pokerkat doesn't know what Pokerkat is thinking. Bets big when hand is bad and small hand is good. Pokerkat is not very good at poker.
This meerkat loves to spend day in trendy café drinking black-as-the-midnight coffee from tiny cup and having deep thought about life, art and what fur-styles are going to be cool this year.


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[LuckyKBoxer]

Thats funny, you are having way too much fun with that meerkat site.

 

[Carol]

Tertiary education is highly subsidized in France with public university students receiving nearly all tuition payments in the form of scholarships and grants from the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_France

They still have exceptionally high standards.

That's very true too.

But, culturally, would that work here?

France is a smaller country with a historical respect for education.

The Eastern Seaboard (New England, NY, PA, NJ, MD, DE, DC, VA) is an area that has, historically, respects education. Its also an area roughly the size of France with roughly the same climate.

So, using that region as a comparison...a lot of "what ifs" come to my mind.

France has much stricter immigration rules, resulting in a less-diverse population. What if the Eastern Seaboard region had the same rules, with the same result?

France has refused any recognition of minority people to the point that the EU has revoked monies out of concern for what some people have dubbed "institutionalized racism". What if the Eastern Seaboard was in a similar position with the U.S. Federal Government?

Connect the dots and it makes for an uncomfortable picture.

That being said John...I'm not in the educational field, but you are. Do you see the same picture I do?

Do you see factors that would lead to funded tertiary education being a success here?

 

[Tez3]

Thats funny, you are having way too much fun with that meerkat site.

I know, it's just seems to have hit my funny bone! I love meerkats (real ones) they just beg to be made into stars!

Education should be paid for by tax payers because it's probably the one thing every member of society will benefit from. From good education you will have every profession a community needs from plumbers, carpenters to medics, police officers, teachers, scientists etc. When they work and get better jobs they pax taxes which means they pay for their education anyway.
However you believe a society should go from communist to capitolist there is no doubting that a sound education is the one thing it needs. In fact I think education is far too important to actually be left in the hands of politiicians, it should be beyond politics. People should never stop learning and every effort to be made to enable people to study.

 

[RRepster]

Gov't based education is a cruel joke and even promotes gang violence. When you cram that many people together everyday in a tax-provided meeting place what do you think is going to happen? There will be trouble. Bust them schools up into small one or two room school houses again. Heck you don't even need "teachers" for H.S. level and up. Instead you rotate community leaders to teach. Essentially you set up a large home school type co-op.

PE? That's what team leagues and your local Y is for.
Science labs? Gimme a break, the gov't has outlawed chemistry kits anyway so learn from a book.
Math help? There's plenty of qualified people around to help kids with it. Get a name and number from a tutor bulletin board at the local Library.
Shop class? Get local car, tractor, etc... businesses to take in students on certain days, go over curriculum with and give them hands on training.

The free open market combined with volunteerism could replace the gov't controlled failed system overnight.

But to transfer to this laissez-faire system many things would have to change as well. The 8 hour day created by the minimum wage would have to go and business return to a "if your work is done, good for you, see you tomorrow." instead of twiddling ones thumbs for hours to spread the load out all day. Yes gov't, not laziness created that because under minimum wage rules affects "part time/full time" work definitions which in turn effect whether you get medical plans and so on which also get set by gov't (usually state). So there would be an entire paradigm shift. For that matter if gov't went away more of us could likely go part time work and maintain our gardens and be one of the volunteer (or pro) teachers because gone would be the slavery of property tax over us. That's right, you don't seriously believe you are free do you? The moment property tax isn't paid you lose your property by government force which means you do not actually own your property at all but rather rent it from the government. Hmm that's called --- you guessed it - fealty.

 

[JDenver]

As someone who teaches at a PVI, a private college with very high tuition rates, I can tell you categorically that just because people pay for it doesn't mean that they appreciate it. It's just not true, not where I am.

Besides, how would the status quo, with the US ranking so low on international standards tests in math and science compared to other nations, how would preserving this situation help? How does saddling someone with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt for their education help anything? Wouldn't more people be inclined to learn if it were made more available to them? Don't the comparative literacy rates of countries where education is more accessible support this idea?

 

[JDenver]

PE? That's what team leagues and your local Y is for.
Science labs? Gimme a break, the gov't has outlawed chemistry kits anyway so learn from a book.
Math help? There's plenty of qualified people around to help kids with it. Get a name and number from a tutor bulletin board at the local Library.
Shop class? Get local car, tractor, etc... businesses to take in students on certain days, go over curriculum with and give them hands on training.

The free open market combined with volunteerism could replace the gov't controlled failed system overnight.

1. There is no such thing as a 'free, open market'.
2. Relying on volunteers for the education of the children of an entire nation is really one of the wildest things I've ever heard of. That 1 guy who tutors in math in your neighbourhood is sure gonna be busy!

 

[Makalakumu]

That's very true too.

But, culturally, would that work here?

France is a smaller country with a historical respect for education.

The Eastern Seaboard (New England, NY, PA, NJ, MD, DE, DC, VA) is an area that has, historically, respects education. Its also an area roughly the size of France with roughly the same climate.

So, using that region as a comparison...a lot of "what ifs" come to my mind.

France has much stricter immigration rules, resulting in a less-diverse population. What if the Eastern Seaboard region had the same rules, with the same result?

France has refused any recognition of minority people to the point that the EU has revoked monies out of concern for what some people have dubbed "institutionalized racism". What if the Eastern Seaboard was in a similar position with the U.S. Federal Government?

Connect the dots and it makes for an uncomfortable picture.

Those are all great counter points and I am not sure how it would work here. One of the problems is that we have all of these problems and all of these programs that deal with the effects of people NOT having access to the education they need. It makes the situation seem more complicated then it is by casting certain groups in a bad light.

One thing that can be said is that the evidence for our system is abominable with compared to other places that more completely subsidize their education system. Nearly all of the affluent countries that do so have populations that are far more educated the population of the US. Yeah, we are different and more diverse, but when you look at a country like New Zealand, where tertiary education is subsidized 75% by the government, they have one of the best educated populations in the world. NZ is a diverse country of immigrants and, while their laws are not lax, they let in any minority group as long as you can speak english and you bring some benefit to the society.

That being said John...I'm not in the educational field, but you are. Do you see the same picture I do?

Do you see factors that would lead to funded tertiary education being a success here?

It could be a good thing and it could be a bad thing. It really depends on how its done. I could see it being successful as a program that gives people choice in how they want to be educated. As soon as "experts" start telling people "how" and "what" to learn, it'll get screwed up.

From my point of view, having taught students on the bottom and top of the barrel in regards to SES, there always comes a point when the student realizes that you have to know something in order to do something valuable. The problem is access. For one group, its no problem because they have the support and the funds to make it happen. For another group, there's a limited set of circumstances that determine whether or not you get to go on.

IMHO, I think it would be a lot easier argument to say that we live in a society that values responsibility when we collectively take responsibility to educate everyone to the highest degree that they chose.

I understand the argument that people are making in regards to paying a price and valuing it more. This will limit opportunity based on the circumstances of birth because, other then good health, education is one of the biggest factors out there that will give a person a hand up. I can envision a society that has less of a need of various social programs because it supports education more.