Educaid vs Public Education

[Kane]

"Every time I encounter someone in the workplace, I am reminded of just how much we have failed to properly educate United States citizens in the fundamentals of communication: reading, writing and speaking. Few would argue that the time is long overdue for the United States to "get back to the basics" of a fully functional education system. We need to exclusively focus on the development of communication skills from kindergarten to eighth grade along with annual testing that measures aptitude and interest. Training in mathematics should be limited to addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Unless communication skills are fully mastered, there is no need to advance to high school."

Our education system in the US is getting worse and worse and it most likely has to do with government control of education. Government has to make tax cuts and where tax cuts lead to worse schools. Or there are times when tax goes to other programs such as defense, protection, and entitlement programs. We can't blame the government for this as other programs are just as important.

However, what if we were to privatize schools BUT create an entitlement program for individuals and families with low incomes and resources? This would be similar to Medicaid (where I got the name Educaid) and it should still guarantee education to all children who cannot afford it while keeping schools under the better quality of private schools.

What do you think?

 

[Andrew Green]

I think critical thinking and logic need to be stuck in there too

That said, you'll have a very hard time selling me on privatizing education, but not on the fact that it needs change (Canadian one needs some work too )

 

[Kane]

I think critical thinking and logic need to be stuck in there too

That said, you'll have a very hard time selling me on privatizing education, but not on the fact that it needs change (Canadian one needs some work too )

Yes maybe. But perhaps you can explain to me why Educaid wouldn't work .

 

[Andrew Green]

I dunno, we don't have medicaid and I'm not really sure how it works. But up here at least, privatizing education would not fly.

 

[michaeledward]

Yes maybe. But perhaps you can explain to me why Educaid wouldn't work .

Because the Federal government provides less than 7% of education funds to the local communities. Slice and dice that 7% any way you wish, and you will have, at most, 7% impact.

Are you proposing a shift in taxes from the local to federal level to support this 'Eduaid' program?

 

[Kane]

I dunno, we don't have medicaid and I'm not really sure how it works. But up here at least, privatizing education would not fly.

Actually we do. Medicaid was created on July 30, 1965. Makes you wonder why some people want universal health care when medicaid is sort like universal health care already.

Because the Federal government provides less than 7% of education funds to the local communities. Slice and dice that 7% any way you wish, and you will have, at most, 7% impact.

Are you proposing a shift in taxes from the local to federal level to support this 'Eduaid' program?

Why not? Medicaid is managed jointly by the states and the federal government. If we can do the same with Educaid it can be done.

 

[michaeledward]

Well, actually, I disagree with your premise. I do not believe the education system is getting worse and worse.

It seems that philosophically you desire privatized education supported through the contributions of others and are working to present an argument to support it.

It would seem to me, that there is a logical fallacy in there, somewhere.

 

[Bigshadow]

Although there are problems with the educational system in the United States, the burden of responsibility does not necessarily fall upon the government. The burden of responsibility is upon the parents of the children. Parents need to provide an environment for their children that inspires them to learn. The desire to question things and get answers starts at a very young age. However, I have seen far too many parents who stifle the curiosity of their children. It is the parents responsibility to inspire their children to learn. This is largely done by example, not just by demanding it.

As for the education system.... Where should I begin?

 

[Kane]

Well, actually, I disagree with your premise. I do not believe the education system is getting worse and worse.

It seems that philosophically you desire privatized education supported through the contributions of others and are working to present an argument to support it.

It would seem to me, that there is a logical fallacy in there, somewhere.

Well look at the health care system of the US. It is largely privatized but there are government programs for those who do not have a high enough income to afford Medicare. This is Medicaid of course. Our tax money goes ONLY to the poor and not the middle or upper classes that can already pay for health care.

Similarly, we can privatize the schools and provide an Educaid program to any who cannot afford education. Therefore the tax money goes mainly for tuition for the poor for these private schools. This way the schools are largely privatized. The tax money goes ONLY to the poor and not the middle or upper classes that can already pay for education.

This can work on all levels, not only in education for minors but for those who want access to high education. In fact we already have this kind of system to a certain extent for higher education (depending on the state).

Our education system is getting worse and worse because government has to make cuts for other programs. This of course reduces the amount of classes in a school let alone the overall quality.

Plus nearly all public school teachers are highly educated individuals. It would be fairer to pay them more. This is possible under a more privatized school system. So to a certain extent one can argue this system is totally privatized. It would be as privatized as our health care I guess.

 

[Flatlander]

It's a terrible idea for a capitalist society, because free access to education is what provides the knowledge base to drive economic growth. Make people pay, and many may miss out.

 

[Rich Parsons]

"Every time I encounter someone in the workplace, I am reminded of just how much we have failed to properly educate United States citizens in the fundamentals of communication: reading, writing and speaking. Few would argue that the time is long overdue for the United States to "get back to the basics" of a fully functional education system. We need to exclusively focus on the development of communication skills from kindergarten to eighth grade along with annual testing that measures aptitude and interest. Training in mathematics should be limited to addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Unless communication skills are fully mastered, there is no need to advance to high school."

While I disagree. Everytime I get my change, those at the cash register have a time readying the change from the screen, or if they did not hit the right button to get a a change display they cannot figure it out themselves.

If you cannot do mathematics, you also need to get special attention.

It would be like me saying that everyone needs to be able to do Calculus in High School which requires a certain level of Algebra in 7th grade, which means if you do not have it you are held back just as well.

Our education system in the US is getting worse and worse and it most likely has to do with government control of education. Government has to make tax cuts and where tax cuts lead to worse schools. Or there are times when tax goes to other programs such as defense, protection, and entitlement programs. We can't blame the government for this as other programs are just as important.

I graduated from HS. I was diagnosed with slight Dyslexia in my 6th year of college. This was totally done by accident as I had learned to cope by this time.

Yet, in Elementary school I was held back in English and reading because my spelling was poor. When what I had was a diagnosable learning disorder.

In 6th Grade (* Jr High *) they lost my files, and I was put into basic English, Reading and Social Studies classes, and when the instructors saw that I was in advanced Math and Science, had me moved to Advanced Social Studies and also English, yet my dyslexia had me a problem with my reading comp as I was too slow. Yet, to fit the schedule of being in advanced classes, I was put into advanced reading and struggled to keep up.

Yet, being a person who graduated high school at 17, and it being months off before I would be 18, I was young. I was not socially as advanced as the rest of the students. Should I have been held back? Maybe. Should I have been where I was? Maybe. So I as basically the young kid in the class and also doing the advanced classes, but still had this reading comp problem for speed and also spelling.

State test scores are taken in 4th/7th/10th . In the 7th grade I had a 4th grade spelling, as it was also timed. I had 10th grade reading comp, as I had learned how to answer the questions in time by reading the qustions first, and then reading the paragraphs until I got the answer to the first question, then moved on to the next. My Math and science were 11th Grade Plus.

In 10th grade I tested College Senior Level for Math and Science, (* Which is not the standard engineer, just someone who has had some college algebra and maybe a physics class. *) My reading comnp was good as well at 2nd year college, but my Spelling was still very low and only at 7th grade level.

So my point is that it is the individual that can make it. That under your new Dictatorship will be held back and possible not a functional member of society.

The government does not make the tax cuts. The People vote for school milliages. These relate to property taxes and the home owners ot business owners pay taxes that go to the schools. General Education funds come from the State, which is true, but, when a teacher asks for more money, they get laughed at, and people say they are over paid baby sitters now.

The same people then complain about their kids education and why will not the Government do something about it for them.

If our society values something i.e. sports then people get paid well. Our culture does not value education, hence the teachers make ok money in some areas but in many not so good. In my local state there is a shortage of teachers, and to get some teachers in the needed areas, for everyone wants to teach in the rich neighborhood and not in the inner cities. (* Another issue completly about income and education level *). The state said they would pay off or forgive state loans for education if they taugh a minimum number of years. This worked for a while but is not the long term fix.

Society has also taken all control and or authority from the school systems. No threat of the paddle for spanking. Laws, I mean LAWS have to be passed not school board decrees that if a child brings a weapon to school he is banned and no appeal, even if it is a good student just afraid. For if the school board issues a decree it is challenged in court. If a student get detention, the parents might be upset for the interruption to their plans, while others are happy for their child is not at home alone. Yet, the teacher and admin staff of a school cannot take action to get rid of the trouble makers, or problem students who know that they have no authority to do anything to them.

There was a young punk who came up to me and hit me once. He told me I could not hit him back as he was under 18 and I was over. I was 17 at the time, but he did not know and is not really the issue. I reached and pinned him to the back of the wall of the building. I told him yes I cannot touch him. I told him that it is against the law. He siad he would scream for help and I would be in trouble. I then screamed as loud as I could. No one came to check it out. The police station was less than 300 yards from where I was standing with no buildings or trees in the way. All were in side or out on patrol no one came. I then told him I could beat him senseless and no one would know and it would be my word versus his. He got scarred, adn tried to leave. I kept him there. He then looked like he was ready to cry and said "Can I go home, please?" I aksed him what did he learn tonight. That the law is the law but it does not always protect. I explained that he now knew that the law could be actioned but he still had to live through to get to the law.

Our kids today, tell teaches, "You cannot touch me!" as they throw things or kick dirt on the teacher if out side.

No respect.

Well this starts at home and should be the parents responsibility.

It should the be childs responsibility to also learn about cause and effect, that there are repercussion to their actions. That they need to learn control and how to work with others just as well as learn to read and write and add.

People should take responsibility for themselves, and when the child is too young then the parents.

Yet, this is a problem for society has stated they know more about how your children should be raised, and that you cannot punish them other than in the approved ways.

I am in no way supporting child abuse or neglect, by hitting or not feeding a child, but one can spank a shild until a certain age, and also one can punish the child with appropriate responses, versus go to your room with an XBOX and Cell phone with Cable TV and Movies on Demand.


Could you explain how are local and state taxes go to defense and protection? Entitlement I can see with state programs. I know of nothing in my Federal Taxes that are required to be used for Education. I know there are form time to time special funds and programs, but nothing that is standard.

However, what if we were to privatize schools BUT create an entitlement program for individuals and families with low incomes and resources? This would be similar to Medicaid (where I got the name Educaid) and it should still guarantee education to all children who cannot afford it while keeping schools under the better quality of private schools.

Separation of the classes. This would work until the ACLU started a program called bussing. At that point there would be more taxes required to move those form the poor sections to the richer sections, and there would be no school in the poor sections.

What do you think?

I think a lot of things, but will part with just two more comments:

1) The Federal Government should not be involved in our local school education system.

2) The greatest invention of the 20th Century was and is the Spell Checker. Now to get one that inserts into the forum software nicely would be great.

 

[Kacey]

As a public school teacher, I generally stay out of these discussions, as I become quite passionate about it. However, several points that I agree with have been made so far in this thread:

1) Education begins at home. I work in a high-needs, low socio-economic area, and many of my students come to school tired, dirty, hungry, and with poor social skills. They begin kindergarten behind, and, by the time they get to the middle school in which I work, they are farther behind. Despite that, the students in my school made the greatest gains on our district test of any secondary school in the district. This is due to the dedication of the staff, and our focus on several things: literacy skills, training in appropriate behavior (how to, rather than how not to), and a strong drive to involve parents and other members of the community - because if the child does not want to learn, there is only so much I, as a teacher, can do about it.

2) Privatization is a bad idea. Look at the Edison Schools - a failed experiment in privatization. Yes, they had some success in the beginning - but schools are businesses in the sense that businesspeople think they should be. Public schools must educate every student who appears on the doorstep - except in extreme cases, we cannot reject any student, no matter how far behind or how poor their behavior... including those who have been kicked out of other schools. Expulsion, at least in Colorado, applies only to the district in which it occurs, is only for 1 year, and requires an alternative education plan (usually a computerized program) for all expelled students under the age of 16. If one considers, as one schould, that students are the primary clients of schools, then one must also consider that there are no other businesses, except hospitals and emergency services, which must serve all clients, no matter what, with very few exceptions.

3) Socioeconomic status does affect achievement. This does not mean that all poor students will achieve badly, nor that all rich students will achieve well - but in general, students from middle or upper class families start school with more experience with educational tasks (preschool rather than daycare, for example), having been read to more often, been exposed to, and therefore acquired, larger vocabularies (better educated adults generally have better vocabularies, and are generally paid more), have been exposed to middle class values and behavior expectations (most teachers are from the middle class, even though their students are not), and have benefitted from a wide range of experiences that their poorer peers generally have not - all of which are correlated with success in school. Notice that I say correlated - not causal. Students without these advantages can succeed - but they start from a disadvantaged position, and it is harder for them.

4) A corollary to #3 - many of the parents at my school do value education, but they are so busy with shift work because it pays better, or working 2 or more jobs to make ends meet, that they are not home when their children are home and awake to reinforce these values; they are too busy surviving. Unfortunately, a significant number do not value education, having either succeeded without it (although jobs that don't require at least a high school diploma are much scarcer than they used to be), or having decided that other things are more important, such as needing the oldest child to stay home and babysit the youngers ones, so the parent(s) can work - because child care costs more than the parent(s) can manage while still providing food and shelter.

The problems plagueing education in the US today are much more complex than simply blaming the schools. Are there teachers, and whole schools, which have given up on anything more than armed babysitting? Certainly - but that is a failing of the society which undervalues education, and considers school free day care and not much else. And those schools are, by far, in the minority - but even so, the problems are societal. The schools are responsible for some of the problem, true - but they are not solely at fault. Education is not valued by large segments of this society; other large segments are too busy placing blame to help solve the problem. The average student spends 13% of his/her waking time from age 5 to age 18 in school - the people present for the other 87% of the time need to step up to the plate at some point. The US has the shortest school year of any first-world country - but we are still running on a calendar based on the agricultural needs of the last century... and communities have started passing laws to prevent schools from starting earlier or getting out later, because it interferes with parents' abilities to plan vacations - what does that say about the priorities in this country, where education is concerned?

I'll get off my soapbox now - thanks for reading (if you got this far).

 

[Rich Parsons]

Kacey,

My post was not to make it sound like that all parents do not care, or if poor, they do not care, for they also have to work to pay for food and housing and medical. I understand that.

My point was that if society thought it was very important, then we would have a way of paying people more money, which would get more teachers to get smaller classes to get more attention per student, to get better and quicker results.

Yet as I tried and poorly did as I did not mean to insult, that society needs to care about it not just some good over worked parents. Society, needs to look at it and say I need to pay for this as every child should be educated.

Just not sure how to do it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just heard on the news.

ACLU is suing the state of Florida and also the teachers for something to do with the pledge. It was originally written in 1982, and in 1954 "under God" was added.

While I am for it being removed, I still do not think the teachers are the ones that should be held responsible for a student and what they say in class.

 

[Marginal]

"Every time I encounter someone in the workplace, I am reminded of just how much we have failed to properly educate United States citizens in the fundamentals of communication: reading, writing and speaking. Few would argue that the time is long overdue for the United States to "get back to the basics" of a fully functional education system. We need to exclusively focus on the development of communication skills from kindergarten to eighth grade along with annual testing that measures aptitude and interest. Training in mathematics should be limited to addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Unless communication skills are fully mastered, there is no need to advance to high school."

Whatever happened to the notion of balance? Why has science, history, civics etc all fallen by the wayside in the brain of the pundit? They're no less important than communication skills or the ability to rub two pennies together, and figure out that you have... Uh, two pennies.

Couldn't beleive the introductory geology class I took in college. It was during a summer session, and it had a lot of kids from the local high school from some kind of boost program there. All of them were shocked by the concept of amorphus solids, strata, the fact they had to memorize various minerals and rock formations... Stuff I learned in middle school, and in elementary school. That geology class introduced concepts and theories etc that shouldn't have been news to these kids. (Bet they took a really pretty CSAP tho.)

 

[Kane]

All,

I totally agree that there are many factors contributing to the lack of education in many students. Careless parents, lower priority, ect. do all have to do with it but total government-run anything also lowers the quality.

Another thing we should take in mind here is that many children take advantage of the fact that they have seemingly "free" education (even though it’s not free). They assume that school is easy and can be done at anything. Where as a private school student may think twice about doing this as they know their parents are paying good money for their education.

Plus if individual schools and districts using their own budget reduce the stress of a school. If one school has a crisis it doesn't have to put the burden on another. And there are no state cuts over schools.

I'm not saying children shouldn't be allowed in school because they cannot pay. A new Educaid system will provide enough resources to all families that cannot afford education. The same education from the same private schools in fact.

So in a way what I am advocating is semi-privatization, but mostly. I still don't see how why an Educaid program would solve the public-private problem.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i work closely with many teachers up here and i think it's inaccurate to say the system is getting worse. a fairer statement is we're trying to do inappropriate things with the system.

our world has become so complex that it's impossible to send somebody through 12 years of schooling anywhere and have them know 'enough' about everything. and yet that's what the schools appear to be trying to do. example: a third grade teacher i know has trouble getting the math done because she has to take time out to teach about american indian tribes of the local region.

i'm not against learning about american indian tribes, or piagetti, or subatomic physics, or fuzzy kitty cats. but i see a system that tries to cram information down the students at such a vast rate that they're missing out on teaching students how to _find_ information.

i'd propose going back to teaching students to read, write and do figures. that would be all for the first three years. after that, research projects on various subjects with the focus on methods of getting the info you need, rather than the information itself.

i'd also propose some fairly heavy-handed methods to get parents to encourage their students to do homework and show up for class.

 

[Ping898]

While I disagree. Everytime I get my change, those at the cash register have a time readying the change from the screen, or if they did not hit the right button to get a a change display they cannot figure it out themselves.

If you cannot do mathematics, you also need to get special attention.

Now I have to take umbrage at that statement cause though this may not be true of your typical cashiers, I can't do simple mathematics half the time anymore. I have spent so much time doing higher level math, that if the problem doesn't involve differential equations and letters I have a brain fart and forget how to add and subtract.

I will say that education in this country is severely lacking. I went to a good private catholic High school and I still found myself unprepared in some areas once I got to college.
I think the two significant ways it can be improved is to make classes smaller to get more indiviualized attention and for teachers to start thinking outside the box. They need to do more than just lecture and give out worksheets. I was a student that didn't do well in settings like that, so like for math my parents would help me learn by asking me addition and subtraction in french. I thought it was a game and didn't know I was learning too. I was just talking to a guy whose son is in kindergarten and was learning numbers and critical thinking doing really simple Sudoku puzzles. Unfortunetally those teachers are the exception not the norm.

 

[Bigshadow]

but that is a failing of the society which undervalues education, and considers school free day care and not much else.

That right there is a profound piece of information. This is very true! I have seen many parents that fit that profile. Sad....

 

[Kacey]

Kacey,

My post was not to make it sound like that all parents do not care, or if poor, they do not care, for they also have to work to pay for food and housing and medical. I understand that.

My point was that if society thought it was very important, then we would have a way of paying people more money, which would get more teachers to get smaller classes to get more attention per student, to get better and quicker results.

Yet as I tried and poorly did as I did not mean to insult, that society needs to care about it not just some good over worked parents. Society, needs to look at it and say I need to pay for this as every child should be educated.

Just not sure how to do it.

Rich -

No problem... as you can probably tell, this is something I am passionate about. In this day of high-stakes testing (which only tells you how well the child took a test on the days the test was given), too many people seem to be ignoring the forest for the trees - it is easy to blame schools and teachers, and, as you said, much harder to fix the societal problems that add to school failure.