Fork of martial artists for Christ, dialogue
- Thread starter TSDTexan
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What is it you want to talk about specifically? I'm a Christian (specifically, Catholic) and I practice a traditional Okinawan martial art. I don't see any conflicts between the two.
Headhunter
Senior Master
Isn't that the point of this entire forum to talk about martial arts and if you want to talk about religion I'm sure there's category for that here to
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'll bite, based on comment I saw in the other thread.
The existence of a god of any sort, by any name, cannot be proven, nor disproven. A diety cannot be seen, felt, detected, nor measured in any way. Anyone claiming to have seen, felt, detected, measured, spoken/communicated with a diety of any kind has only their word to offer in support of that claim, and that is not proof that can be accepted by anyone else. It cannot be corroborated by a third party. If you accept the existence of a diety, then you accept on pure faith, not on any actual proof.
Holy texts are not proof. They were written by people, not by the hand of a diety.
Will I go to heaven, or hell, or someplace else, or be reincarnated, or simply end my existence when I die? I have no idea, and there is no way to uncover the answer before I die. So I have no interest in it and I do not waste time worrying about it nor planning for it. I don't think about it, I actually simply have no interest in it. And that feeling extends to religions as a whole.
The notion that a diety can choose to cure cancer in a baby is dangerous and foolish. Putting any faith in such a position will get you one thing: a dead baby. Miracles don't happen. Get your medical treatments from a real doctor, not from a cleric.
Praying for others' salvation is offensive, if the recipient of the prayers does not share your religious belief. My "soul", if I and anyone else even have one, does not need to be saved. If, upon my death, I find myself face-to-face with a diety and am told to account for my life, I will deal with it then. Until that happens, I don't waste time or energy worrying about it.
Physics tells us a lot about how the universe was formed and how it functions. Biology and chemistry tell us a lot about how life works. Granted, none of these disciplines can yet tell us exactly how it all began, but new discoveries are happening all the time, that increase our understanding. Nothing yet indicates the will or direction of a diety. Nothing. The fact that not all the details are yet understood, does not indicate a diety. It simply means there is research yet to be done.
If Satan is allowed to spread evil in the world, then he would be doing so at god's will. If god chooses to restrain Satan later, why would he then confine Satan to a lake of fire in punishment? That makes no sense at all. Satan was only acting at god's will, after all.
To the limited extent that I have thought about this, I choose to believe that if there is a Satan/Lucifer as agent of evil, he would not be a fallen angel, but would actually be god's most trusted servant of all the angels. Satan would be acting on god's directions, and would be charged with being the source of evil in the world. Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god. It would not be possible. Only the closest and most loyal servant could be trusted with such a difficult responsibility. So Satan would not be punished afterwards. He would sit at the seat of highest honor next to god. That is a mythology that I prefer, so far as evil goes.
Anyway, so far as it goes.
The existence of a god of any sort, by any name, cannot be proven, nor disproven. A diety cannot be seen, felt, detected, nor measured in any way. Anyone claiming to have seen, felt, detected, measured, spoken/communicated with a diety of any kind has only their word to offer in support of that claim, and that is not proof that can be accepted by anyone else. It cannot be corroborated by a third party. If you accept the existence of a diety, then you accept on pure faith, not on any actual proof.
Holy texts are not proof. They were written by people, not by the hand of a diety.
Will I go to heaven, or hell, or someplace else, or be reincarnated, or simply end my existence when I die? I have no idea, and there is no way to uncover the answer before I die. So I have no interest in it and I do not waste time worrying about it nor planning for it. I don't think about it, I actually simply have no interest in it. And that feeling extends to religions as a whole.
The notion that a diety can choose to cure cancer in a baby is dangerous and foolish. Putting any faith in such a position will get you one thing: a dead baby. Miracles don't happen. Get your medical treatments from a real doctor, not from a cleric.
Praying for others' salvation is offensive, if the recipient of the prayers does not share your religious belief. My "soul", if I and anyone else even have one, does not need to be saved. If, upon my death, I find myself face-to-face with a diety and am told to account for my life, I will deal with it then. Until that happens, I don't waste time or energy worrying about it.
Physics tells us a lot about how the universe was formed and how it functions. Biology and chemistry tell us a lot about how life works. Granted, none of these disciplines can yet tell us exactly how it all began, but new discoveries are happening all the time, that increase our understanding. Nothing yet indicates the will or direction of a diety. Nothing. The fact that not all the details are yet understood, does not indicate a diety. It simply means there is research yet to be done.
If Satan is allowed to spread evil in the world, then he would be doing so at god's will. If god chooses to restrain Satan later, why would he then confine Satan to a lake of fire in punishment? That makes no sense at all. Satan was only acting at god's will, after all.
To the limited extent that I have thought about this, I choose to believe that if there is a Satan/Lucifer as agent of evil, he would not be a fallen angel, but would actually be god's most trusted servant of all the angels. Satan would be acting on god's directions, and would be charged with being the source of evil in the world. Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god. It would not be possible. Only the closest and most loyal servant could be trusted with such a difficult responsibility. So Satan would not be punished afterwards. He would sit at the seat of highest honor next to god. That is a mythology that I prefer, so far as evil goes.
Anyway, so far as it goes.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
@offheard if god actually answers prayers then doesn't that make the situation worse?
I read this thing where some Christian was asked to move a car and drove it somewhere but later found out the car had no motor.
Miracle.
Proof of faith.
Push the car. Save those miracles for the cancer babies.
I read this thing where some Christian was asked to move a car and drove it somewhere but later found out the car had no motor.
Miracle.
Proof of faith.
Push the car. Save those miracles for the cancer babies.
Oh now I see. Nevermind.
There is a reason i stopped paying attention to the other thread. Was hoping this one would go a different way, but apparently not.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Your opinion is respected.
However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.
The way the bible records it. Lucifer was created perfect, but using his own freewill chose the path of rebellion.
He is responsible for deviating from the role and purpose God created for him.
The bible record shows that after the Final Judgment, Satan as he is called these days will be thrown into the lake of fire, for all eternity.
Jesus makes the claim that He was there when Satan was cast out of Heaven, and the presence of God. He claims that Satan fell to the earth like a bolt of lightning.
You claim that "Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god. It would not be possible."
An omnipotent being doesn't have to act instantly, at all times, to be omnipotent.
Allowing Satan a period of time to act against Him doesn't make Him impotent.
Nor does it make Him the author of evil, or a participant/co-conspiracy boss.
Allowing, for a limited time a voice of opposition, serves a greater purpose. Men will have to act in faith towards a quieter voice.
Eventually, God will act at the time He has already decided. And He will bring all rebels to heel.
To choose to join in rebellion to God is the call of Satan.
To submit, like Christ did, is the whisper of the almighty.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I would be interested hearing in what convinces you of this.
I honestly don't know one way or the other. I simply say, a diety cannot be seen or felt or measured. It cannot be proven, nor disproven. Acceptance of a diety is based on faith, not evidence. As such, I am not interested in spending time or energy on it.
So what is it that has you convinced?
As far as the Satan issue, I don't expect anyone to really agree with me on it. It's just an alternate way of seeing it that makes more sense to me. I am not interested in trying to convince anyone that my view is correct, it doesn't really matter to me.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Actually, it's premature to judge before you have all the facts in hand.
On the notion that He is all loving...
He doesn't love everyone. He hates lucifer and his band of fallen angels.
He is powerful, none exists with more power.
Just because He hasn't vindicated Himself yet, doesn't mean that He can't or won't.
He is able to rectify every evil thing that happens to children, such as cancer. But it is unlikely that He will do so at least, while this current mode of creation exists.
He announced that He has a replacement heaven and earth, and that this current one will be retired/destroyed.
He is going to make all things new.
So while His claims are being waited for, they are still already on the record.
This remains to be seen...
In the face of claims that He can't actually or chooses not to act right now, on our human time table ergo He is evil and immoral.
Therefore it's a foregone conclusion to judge Him, with limited facts.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok, this is standard fare stuff. I've heard this stuff before.
What convinces you it is true?
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
I will be glad to share my personal experiences with you.
But first let me respond to your comment:
"I simply say, a diety cannot be seen or felt or measured. It cannot be proven, nor disproven."
As much as I respect your belief as sincere, I will offer the suggestion that it is incorrect.
The proof of God is right in front of us. What I mean to say is science and logic testify that the proof of God is that the universe exists, when in fact, it should not exist.
Let us take the following three statements as a given:
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning.
We know from direct observation that spontaneous creation of matter/energy has never occurred without a cause or catalyst.
We know that there was a point in time when the universe never existed. It was an empty vacuum of nothingness.
A miracle had to happen, in order that matter and energy, chemistry, physics and all the laws that govern our universe could spring into existence, from nothingness.
Now, that alone doesn't prove the God of the bible is the God who created the universe.
But it is proof of a God.
Now, on to my personal experiences.
I will offer two events.
Fall 2007, Lakehills, Texas
My Aunt had severely bruised the top of her foot. It effected her walk badly, and she was in great pain.
The bruise started at the root of her big toe and covered the whole top of the left foot from side to side, and ended at the ankle.
It was dark blue-black, and I estimate 3'' by 4''. It had been caused by a fireproof safe falling off a shell and landing on her foot, about 9 hours before I arrived.
When I got there, I saw what pain she was in. I asked if she had taken anything for it. She said she had taken some OTC pain relievers, but to no avail.
I was troubled in my heart because I really cared about her. I said I couldn't do anything, but maybe we could pray. I knew she was a firm believer, and we sat down and earnestly prayed that Jesus would heal her for about three minutes.
I went into the kitchen to get a towel and ice.
Suddenly she started yelling for me to come quick, she felt the pain disappearing.
I hurried back. And right in front of our eyes we watched the bruise disappear like a shadow when someone turns on a light.
It completely disappeared in seconds.
Event number two.
July 2009, the Pearl District of Portland Oregon.
I was thrown from my Longboard Skateboard as I was going downhill through a crosswalk.
My wheels came to a sudden stop, because they met streetcar rails that the asphalt had peeled away from.
I was carrying a laptop in a messenger bag.
It landed first, and I speared myself on its edge. I went to the hospital, and chest ex rays showed multiple broken ribs.
I was in the most intense agonizing pain in my life. I hurt when I moved, breathed, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't raise much arms to shoulder level. I could go on at length, but that's not the point.
The point is that I was desperate, and in agony. I cried out to God in tears. I prayed in sincere need, begging.
In short, within 72 hours, I was a recipient of a miracle. The doctor said the soonest I would heal was 5-7 weeks.
I was fully healed, full range of motion and movement and pain free when I got up on the third morning after I prayed.
Now you can write me off as a liar, or mentally unstable. But I know what I experienced.
Now, there are many many times I have not had the prayers answered with the answer I was looking for.
God isn't a genie in a bottle that you rub for wish fulfillment.
Looking forward to hearing from you
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Physics does a good job of describing how the universe works, all the way back to a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang itself. Research is being done to uncover what came earlier.
Human history is rife with examples of unknown phenomenon that were attributed to the supernatural. Things like diseases and the movement of the sun across the sky. These things became understood, as science progressed. That is indisputable. That trend continues.
Taking something that is as of yet imperfectly understood, and deciding that the only explanation for it MUST be supernatural, is a desperation move. It is a huge leap to make without first looking for more mundane answers. There are other explanations, and sci nice is giving us those answers, over and over again.
Have you ever had a college level astronomy class? I'm not talking about a physics and calculus-heavy, high level astronomy class. I'm talking about a lower-division introductory class that is understandable by anyone who has made it through high school. Even in a class of this level, this stuff is explained and is completely understandable. If you haven't had such a class, or don't have access to one, there are plenty of books available to the general public, that do a good job of explaining this stuff. This information is readily available. I would be happy to give you suggestions. I would even send you one.
As to your aunts experience, is there any proof you can offer, other than you telling me it happened? If I spoke with her, would she corroborate the story? Is there anyone else who saw the injury, and then saw that it was gone, in such a short time? Injuries do sometimes heal surprisingly quickly, or prove to be not as serious as initially thought.
As to your broken rib, what proof can you offer, other than your assertion that it happened? You had an X-ray, would that record be available from your doctors office? I assume you then saw the doctor again after it healed so quickly, would they have a record of that visit and the follow-up assessment? Was there a second X-ray to re-examine the rib? I would be interested in reviewing those medical records, to substantiate a broken rib healed one the space of a day or two.
These claims require some solid evidence before they could be accepted. Is there any?
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
I would be happy to let you contact my aunt. She has shared her testimony concerning the bruised foot, to other people face to face.
I would need to obtain her permission before giving her contact info to someone she doesn't know, but it should be simple and straightforward.
My Xrays are admittedly more problematic. I did not really want to pay several hundred dollars out of pocket, as my insurance wasn't going to cover the second series of films within a week.
The first showed clear breaks, no miracle in that. At the time I was just very happy to be painfree and able to work. I wasn't concerned with documenting a miracle, but paying my bills.
I wish that I had paid for the second round of Xrays, in retrospect.
I would be happy to submit to a lie detector examination concerning my testimony.
As for the big bang, all physics and astronomy guys concur that nothing existed prior to the big bang.
Nothing existed. Then something happened to cause nothing to produce something.
There remains no observable circumstances to watch and study how an empty realm, or void space can spontaneously cause matter and space between matter to exist.
How the universe came to exist will without time travel be a matter of theory and conjecture.
The position of the Christian is easy. The bible claims divine inspiration, ie God caused men over time to author a record. 66 books over the space of 3400bce to 90ce.
This record makes the claim that God did it.
So we hold that God has given testimony that He created it.
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Where did you get these ideas from? 'Satan' doesn't occupy any prominent role in Jewish theology at all, the word itself just means 'adversary or enemy' with the root word being 'to oppose', there is no supernatural attachment to this. In the opening chapters of the Book of Job , āThe Satanā (with the definite article, so the meaning is āthe Adversaryā and Satan here is not a proper name) is an angel who appears in the council of the angels in order to challenge God to put Job to the test.
The Satan, who acts like a prosecuting attorney, or a district attorney, in G-d's court. However, The Satan has no power or authority in and of himself, rather he must get permission from the Judge, G-d, to do anything.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok, I accept that your aunt would corroborate the story. Any other witnesses to her injury and quick healing? No doctor visit there?
As to your broken rib, yes it is unfortunate that there is not follow-up medical records. There is no evidence that this happened, and I cannot accept it as proof of divine intervention. I simply cannot.
A friend of mine in college broke his wrist, and had it in a cast for a while. He got tired of it, wanted to go skiing and decided it was a hinderance. Long before the cast was due to come off, he simply cut it off himself and he as done with it,
And he healed up fine. So, things happen. I have no reason to see divine interventions on in any of it.
Before the Big Bang, all the contents of the universe were contained in an infinitely small space. That is very very different from "there was nothing there". The physics and the math describe it all quite well.
Once upon a time, people believed illness was caused by supernatural causes. Then they began to understand about bacteria, viruses, Protozoa, amoeba, genetics, all of which can cause diseases. They began to understand how good hygiene can prevent many of these diseases. And this changed the world, even without modern medicines and medical therapies.
The supernatural does not affect the world. There are still religious sects that believe in prayer as a cure for disease. Jim Hensen belonged to one of those religions. He did not get treatment for a treatable disease, and he is dead now. A diety does not intervene to cure people. Those who believe in, and count on, that to happen without medical treatment, are courting disaster.
The notion that a diety can step in to cure someone, but won't do so due to various circular justifications is nonsensical. A diety who cannot be seen, felt, tasted, heard, or measured, cannot be proven nor disproven, and who can cure a baby with cancer but will not do so, is no different from a diety who does not exist.
I see nothing of proof here. I see a reliance on old books written ages ago, written by people who were writing in the context of their era in history. There may be some good advice in those books, (along with some very bad) but I see nothing of the divine in them. Nothing to indicate that a diety had a hand in writing them by direct influence of the authors.
There is no evidence.
Exactly and ( not addressed to you Flying Crane) if you are going to steal large parts of other peoples religion you really need not to twist the meaning and ideas it contains into something you think is right.
We weren't given, brains, intelligence, freewill and opposable thumbs so we could sit and pray our way out of things we must be responsible for. We are supposed to do things ourselves, not to pray so poor people are fed, we feed them, not pray for peace, we make the peace, we don't pray for cures we become doctors and medics. We don't sit around wailing 'oh it's G-ds will that people starve etc' we get off our backsides and help these people ( without strings ie convert to your religion!) There is so much focussing on 'I' in all this, instead of praying at G-d for this, that and the other, assuming you know what G-d is and wants ( good grief can you even do that with total certainly let alone a diety!) you should be going out doing things. It's all about actions, the actions you do to love your fellows, to make life better for them, to perform acts of kindness and goodness not to sit around preaching or pontificating. We should be repairing the world ( āTikkun olamā) not thinking about ourselves.
Judaism 101: Love and Brotherhood
Which have been translated so many times into so many languages by people with agendas to push that most 'Bibles' don't actually resemble the original. Certainly no Jew over 2000 years ago would recognise what people are reading these days or the ideas that come from these strange versions.
It doesn't bother me whether people have a religion/faith or not, if they have it doesn't bother me which faith/sect/religion it is but when you take only the parts you want from someone else's faith, mess around with it to make it say what you want then shove it down peoples throats, forcibly convert or make people convert before giving them medical treatment and schooling, when you persecute people who don't believe as you do then you are the biggest cockwomble going.
I could make many logical arguments about where I think the Bible is clearly self-contradictory, etc. I'm not sure there's a lot of merit in that type of debate though.
For me, it comes down to this: I don't believe in any pervading or overseeing consciousness. I've never found any reason to believe in one. I've never found any significant evidence that supports the concept of one (at least, none that supports that concept better than other possibilities). I just see a natural world. It contains things we don't yet understand. I suspect it contains things we will never quite understand, because there are too many questions left to ask and humanity will not be around forever.
I consider myself areligious, agnostic, pantheistic (I could define that as I use it, but for most folks it comes out to approximately the same thing as "atheistic"), and moderately spiritual. Only that last part has any relation to my martial arts.
Actually, neither science nor logic makes the assertion that the universe should not exist.
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