Floating Elbow Theory

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
S.O.P is just a term I coined. which is a mind set that there is only one way to do wing chun..I.M.O there is no one way to do wing chun. Each person will do it there own way. Sorry I did not anwser your question.. I thought you where pulling my finger. Am not sure how to answer your peng bird. I know Peng in Tai Chi is an upward expansion of energy and outward. If your asking me if i do this definitely but in my own way..
There's no one way to do anything.

The Peng bird thing...sometimes it's just a matter of learning something new about your art, usually as simple as a new lens to try.

You look like a kung fu Big Bird to me. That made me think of Da Peng. "The Peng Withdraws its Wings", etc, from the Tiger Crane and Southern Dragon styles.

Don't take that as an insult, please. I am simply musing

1641072204749.png


And that immediately made me return to what I was doing at the time, which was examining the Map of the Inner Warp. Thanks for that. Keep it up. I might actually figure this thing out someday.

1641072260022.png
 
Last edited:
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
There's no one way to do anything.

The Peng bird thing...sometimes it's just a matter of learning something new about your art, usually as simple as a new lens to try.

You look like a kung fu Big Bird to me. That made me think of Da Peng. "The Peng Withdraws its Wings", etc, from the Tiger Crane and Southern Dragon styles.

Don't take that as an insult, please. I am simply musing

View attachment 27875

And that immediately made me return to what I was doing at the time, which was examining the Map of the Inner Warp. Thanks for that. Keep it up. I might actually figure this thing out someday.

View attachment 27876
very interesting illustration.
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
Connecting, absorbing and re-directing incoming force are nothing new, the Wing Chun system already develops these attributes.

In several lineages, the immovable elbow isnt a separate theory at all it is built into the development of the punch, built into fundamental system mechanics, and facilitates Lat Sau Jik Chung. Proper elbow position allows us to hit freely and drive the vertical fist at all times, it aids in recovery and reinforces body unity. If that means the elbow has to move in order to be free to hit or cover, then it moves. Remove the fist of the punch and replace it with a different hand or shape, and you have the same elbow principle for the entire system.


Youre trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system.

The number of Youre trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system.years any pr


Perhaps these questions can help to promote some much needed critical thinking in regards to how structure can be viewed:

Where does structure come from?
Can you clearly explain the mechanics of structure?
What are the trained Wing Chun attributes that develop structure?
Do you train the Luk Dim Boon Gwan? If so, what specifically does it teach us?
You have posted several videos, can you show an example of your structure in use under pressure?


How exactly would you go about easily collapsing someone's elbow?
"Youre trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system."

( I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Am just mold my Wing Chun to my own ides, Just being myself after a long time just following the crowd."and I believe ive made some improvemts on what ive learnt.)

''Where does structure come from?''
( We would first have to agree on what structure is first because everyone has a different opinion on it. But I'll just tell even i I give you an amazing definintion it means nothing if you cant do it..And if i give you a simple answer you might think I dont know what am talking about..Structure is just a simple skill..if you look at my Applied floating elbow there is structure throwout the movement..)

"What are the trained Wing Chun attributes that develop structure?"

( I can only tell you how I develop it. Which was done threw a lot of Chi Sao with my sifu. Feeling his structure then realizing i was only using strnght until I was able to do it..The key is to relax the body and let the tendons and your skeletal alignment take over.)

""Do you train the Luk Dim Boon Gwan? If so, what specifically does it teach us?""

( I have trained it but I have trained the Hung Gar pole much more then the Luk Dim Boon Gwan. I will only tell you what I got out of it..Main thing is a lot more focused explosive power. Of course there are many others but tht is the most important.)

""You have posted several videos, can you show an example of your structure in use under pressure?""

(
)


''


"
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,534
Reaction score
512
I have trained it but I have trained the Hung Gar pole much more then the Luk Dim Boon Gwan

Interesting. Can you post a video of the hung gar pole form? Did Henry teach both and you liked the HG form more than the Fut sao version? (Sorry, bit off topic...)
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
Interesting. Can you post a video of the hung gar pole form? Did Henry teach both and you liked the HG form more than the Fut sao version? (Sorry, bit off topic...)


I did not learn the HG pole from Henry, but my si-dai who is a Hung Gar Sifu..I worked with him on The Wing Chun and he taught me Hung Gar..I had an interest in Hung gar pole..I'm not a sifu in Hung Gar just a student so I don't promote it..Am just a Wing chun guy who knows a little about Hung Gar..as well as a few other things. I really dont have any videos of me doing HG Pole..I had some private vidos on YouTube of me learning the pole form but know I cant access those vidoes as YouTube took control over my channel.
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
1,146
Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way. The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.
So what you seem to be saying is that you are throwing out the core WC structure and replacing it with... nothing (since you seem to be saying elbow alignment doesn't matter)

Well best of luck with all that. Could be a hard sell to anyone that understands the system though.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
I did not learn the HG pole from Henry, but my si-dai who is a Hung Gar Sifu..I worked with him on The Wing Chun and he taught me Hung Gar..I had an interest in Hung gar pole..I'm not a sifu in Hung Gar just a student so I don't promote it..Am just a Wing chun guy who knows a little about Hung Gar..as well as a few other things. I really dont have any videos of me doing HG Pole..I had some private vidos on YouTube of me learning the pole form but know I cant access those vidoes as YouTube took control over my channel.
Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun. This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.

What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets? Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?

Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,534
Reaction score
512
Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun. This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.

What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets? Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?

Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.

Are you saying that "Hung Gar" is the same thing as "Hung Kuen"? Just curious if the two terms are synonomous?
 

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
293
Reaction score
230
Are you saying that "Hung Gar" is the same thing as "Hung Kuen"? Just curious if the two terms are synonomous?
Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.

Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 瘣芸振 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 瘣芣 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 瘣芸振 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,534
Reaction score
512
Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.

Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 瘣芸振 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 瘣芣 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 瘣芸振 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.
Thanks Callen!
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,013
Reaction score
3,994
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.

Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 瘣芸振 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 瘣芣 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 瘣芸振 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.
I was told the Hung Chuan was the only long fist branch (besides Cha, Hua, Tan, and Pao) that moved from north to south.
 

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
293
Reaction score
230
I was told the Hung Chuan was the only long fist branch (besides Cha, Hua, Tan, and Pao) that moved from north to south.
That's my understanding as well. Either by way of Shaolin, secret martial art societies, or directly from Hong Xi Guan. It would seem that how it originated is somewhat uncertain, but once Hong Quan made it to the south it was known as Hong Jia Quan, or Hung Ga in Cantonese.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
Yes. Hung Gar, Hung Ga, Hung Kuen, Hung Gar Kuen and Hung Ga Kuen are different iterations that point to the same style, with slight differences between the groups who use them.

Originally it was Hung Family Boxing but it was eventually shortened to Hung Ga ( 瘣芸振 ), which literally means "hung family". Hung Kuen ( 瘣芣 ) means "large/immense fist". Hung Ga Kuen ( 瘣芸振 ) is both terms put together; so it is somewhat meaningless and redundant when translated into English.

Sort of. There are many levels of "Hung/Hong" Fist.

Hung Ga Kuen is different from the village Hung styles. It's specific to the Five Family style of Hung Hei Gun, who happened to have that same name. All the Hung Ga Kuen family lineages are limited to Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing, or Dang Fong.

Hung Kuen includes that, plus all the village Hung styles and descendant styles like....Snake Crane and Dragon systems. These aren't Hung Ga Kuen.

Even further down are the "Hong" styles like the Red Flood Fist. They are the oldest of all. "Hung" is a name inside a name.
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
Let's fill in some blanks, then. Hung Kuen is a massive system compared to Wing Chun. This is a good opportunity for you to expand your perspective.

What parts of Hung Ga were you taught, and which staff sets? Was it village Hung, Hasayfu, Wong family?

Depending on your answer, you may have learned a canonical staff form, or a non canonical one that got Borged in.
I learnt only the basics.. Gung gee fuk fu and the pole ..its from the Wong Fei Hong lineage..
 

Latest Discussions

Top