Fitness

[Aikikitty]

I used to exercise a LOT and felt great and it helped me in my training. Then I got a job where I'm sitting on my butt a lot, metabolism started slowing down, gained some weight, felt too tired to work out so I didn't. It was depressing when some things that didn't used to be hard in class started getting hard and I was hurting myself doing normal things. In this last year, I've been working hard to eat better and get back in shape. One big thing that I've noticed for me was that when I don't do yoga throughout the week, I hurt more and I felt a lot more stiff in class. When I do yoga, it's sooo much better. It's amazing what a difference there is between regularly exercising and not and how that can effect all aspects of life and not just with martial art training.

 

[chrispillertkd]

How are they "in a world of trouble"?

B

Because if you're winded then you're going to have a lot of trouble 1) defending against someone, 2) engaging in your own offense, and/or 3) practicing that age old strategy of running away. If the situation has progressed to the point where your stamina is compromised it's going to be even more difficult to do any of those things. You'll make a great punching bag, though. If you're lucky.

Pax,

Chris

 

[K-man]

I think that there are more issues here than simple fitness and stamina. The first thing is to survive the initial attack. Then you have to overcome the adrenalin effect. Finally you need a controlled response that enables you to pace youself. An example of this is boxers after they have been hammering their opponent then clinch for a few seconds. I sometimes get on the heavy bag and hit as hard and fast as I can. I'm pretty much finished after two minutes. I don't have any problem lasting an hour aerobic or circuit class. How fast you recover is a measure of fitness as well. :asian:

 

[WC_lun]

Just thought I'd toss this out for discussion. How important do you feel fitness is in the martial arts? How important is it in your own personal life?

I think fitness is important, but sometimes it is confused with skill. Fitness lets you train longer and harder, which effects skill. However, if fitness is somthing that makes the difference in a fight, you are doing something incorrectly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think fitness is important, but sometimes it is confused with skill. Fitness lets you train longer and harder, which effects skill. However, if fitness is somthing that makes the difference in a fight, you are doing something incorrectly.

Respectfully disagree. There's a famous sensei out there whom I have met who was set upon by five guys. He managed to put them all in the hospital, but not before being stabbed by one of them. I don't know how long the fight went on, but it clearly wasn't over in second, and if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say his fitness level mattered.

And we may also be talking about different kinds of fitness. Fitness affects not just breath control and endurance, but also strength, speed, balance, and flexibility. All important in martial arts and self-defense.

I say this as a person struggling to regain some semblance of fitness; not looking down and sneering at those who are not fit; I personally am not at this time.

 

[WC_lun]

Bill, I think this is just one we will not agree on. For me, with the training I have, if I am gassed I am doing something wrong. I do realize even adrenaline can get a person gassed when it calls for more oxygen in the body, but we train for that as well. If someone attacks me, I react to only what I need to react to, putting him in a position he can no longer attack me, then ending his ability to attack. This type of fighting does not lend itself for long exchanges, even among equally skilled fighters. Physical skills are not a great advantage in our type of fighting, because of the way our techniques are implemented. We do what many martial arts claim to do, we use an ooponent's strength against them. So it is even possible for a weaker person to overcome a stronger person, with the strength of the more physically gifted supplying the engine for his own defeat.


Now having said all the above, being physically fit is a great thing. It allows you to cheat the skills a little bit. It allows you to train longer. It allows you to screw up your defense and still maybe survive a bit longer to recover. Just for regular life it is a great thing and so I am not saying don't care about increasing your physical skills. I am saying that a high level martial artist who is relying on physical skills to get the job done has done himself a diservice in his training.

 

[MJS]

I think fitness is important, but sometimes it is confused with skill. Fitness lets you train longer and harder, which effects skill. However, if fitness is somthing that makes the difference in a fight, you are doing something incorrectly.

Oh I agree. IMO, they should go hand in hand. However, on the flip side, someone can have all the skill in the world, yet if they're gasping for air after a few minutes, they're also doing something incorrectly.

 

[MJS]

Fitness is incredibly important in martial arts. To those claiming that fitness does not play into a real fight...I wonder if any of you have actually been in one. I'll touch more on that in a moment but first I want to address it as part of your training. Fitness is so important for preventing injuries and progressing your abilities. If you're gassing after the class warmup then you're not going to be able to keep up with everyone else. Also your level of fitness determines the number of class you can attend. If you have a low level of fitness your body may only be able to handle two sessions a week, which seriously limits how quickly you will learn. Also, if you ever hope to not lose every single match in competition you better get into at least decent shape.

As for real fighting, you can't count on it only lasting 20 seconds like some posters have indicated. The only way it's going to be that short is if you get sucker punched and knocked out or the person you're fighting is at some kind of serious disadvantage. You should count on it lasting closer to a couple of minutes. This may not sound like much but with your adrenaline dump it's incredibly easy to gas, especially because you don't pace yourself like you would in competition. This mindset reminds me of a phrase I often hear thrown around in the martial arts world, and that's "We train to fight average Joe because that's who we will probably run into on the street". This is a dangerous mindset if you plan on defending yourself, what happens when big Jim comes along? If someone is picking a fight with you, chances are they think they have an advantage over you of some kind. It's the same with assuming a fight will end in 20 seconds, what happens when it doesn't? Every martial artist should be in good shape. You will hit harder, throw harder, resist attacks better, take shots better, have a faster reaction time, and last longer when it counts.

Respectfully disagree. There's a famous sensei out there whom I have met who was set upon by five guys. He managed to put them all in the hospital, but not before being stabbed by one of them. I don't know how long the fight went on, but it clearly wasn't over in second, and if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say his fitness level mattered.

And we may also be talking about different kinds of fitness. Fitness affects not just breath control and endurance, but also strength, speed, balance, and flexibility. All important in martial arts and self-defense.

I say this as a person struggling to regain some semblance of fitness; not looking down and sneering at those who are not fit; I personally am not at this time.

Agreed with both of these posts! As I said a few pages back, I think its foolish to assume that something will be over in 20secs, 30secs, etc. Again, I'll use my LEO example. You have to chase after someone, once you catch them, they're not simply going to toss their hands in the air and give up. I almost hate to use this example, because I'm sure someone will say that in a sporting event, you're not really fighting. Many boxing and mma matches have gone on longer than 20secs. Now, of course, there is a huge ruleset, however, IMHO, if we always have to rely on those 'no no' things, well, thats a problem as well.

 

[Kenlee25]

A question for older martial artists. Exactly how much flexibility/strength/speed do you lose with age? In my Taekwondo class, there is a 63 year old man. Mr. Steve still spars and with effort he can still throw some swinging kicks ( he doesn't really snap with them ) but he can hardly get his leg up to the opponents waist. In fact during the cardio/stretching session of class, I noticed his stretch kicks barely get to his lower chest ( it looks more like a slightly high groin kick ). He can still punch though, and even though it's light sparring, I've had the pleasure of being jabbed in the face by him.

Anyway, Is this normal loss of speed/flexibility/power at that age? How well can one combat the challenges of age? Will constant martial arts training, working out, and stretching throughout my life time help combat this? ( I am quite aware that it is indeed impossible to completely counter )

 

[WC_lun]

A few minutes is an eternity in a fight. Look to your sparring. How many minues do you go. Now look at an altercation where two men are intent on harming each other. Add to the equation that one just want to get away? Do you think it will last a few minutes? Highly unlikely.

LEO encounters are a realm of thier own. LEO do not operate on the standard self defense framework. First, I am not chasing anyone to end in an altercation. If someone wants to give me trouble, they are going to have to come to my space, not the other way around. My goal is not to subdue my opponent. My goal is to render him unable to attack me then leave with my body parts intact. In many ways, your job is much harder. You can't do some of the things I can get away with as a citizen defending myself. These are reasons as an LEO that physical skills are even more valuble.

The body degrades. You slow down, get weaker, and just aretn't as crisp as you used to be. Throw an illness or injury into it and life can be difficult for aging martial artist. Plainly speaking, it sucks. However, a lot of older martial artist have a lot of skill and know how to get the job done with less effort. They also seem to be craftier with experience behind them. Imagine yourself aged a bit. Are you a craftier more efficient version of yourself? Think how tough that person would be to fight.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A question for older martial artists. Exactly how much flexibility/strength/speed do you lose with age? In my Taekwondo class, there is a 63 year old man. Mr. Steve still spars and with effort he can still throw some swinging kicks ( he doesn't really snap with them ) but he can hardly get his leg up to the opponents waist. In fact during the cardio/stretching session of class, I noticed his stretch kicks barely get to his lower chest ( it looks more like a slightly high groin kick ). He can still punch though, and even though it's light sparring, I've had the pleasure of being jabbed in the face by him.

Anyway, Is this normal loss of speed/flexibility/power at that age? How well can one combat the challenges of age? Will constant martial arts training, working out, and stretching throughout my life time help combat this? ( I am quite aware that it is indeed impossible to completely counter )

Yes, it is normal. Especially for those who come to martial arts training later in life and never had the flexibility to begin with.

Not everyone loses physical capability as they age, at least not at the same rate as everyone else, so it is difficult to predict that a person of a certain age will or will not be able to kick high, or have great speed or great power. But in general, yes, it diminishes with age. Exactly how much? I don't think anyone can answer that question.

Also, it takes longer to heal from injuries as we age. Again, in general.

However, of the attributes you mentions, I think strength lasts the longest. In some cases, we get stronger as we age. Believe it or not. Power lifters are generally considered to be at their peak around age 40. For playing many sports, the demands on the joints and flexibility mean that age takes a toll, but when we're talking about pure power, age is not a negative but a positive up to a certain point.

Believe it or not, there are some advantages to getting older too. One is that pain means less. I'm not fond of pain, I still say ouch and try to avoid it whenever possible (especially dental pain, that's the worst). But I can dig in and keep going and when I was younger, I either could not or would not do that to the extent I can now.

I think experience in life in general also works to our advantage as we age. We learn what works and what doesn't. We don't string things along, we go for the end-game using the most direct route possible. I don't care if my sparring is pretty; I want to end the fight and be done.

We also have more ability to avoid confrontation, more experience in recognizing bullcrap and understanding what is and what is not a threat. That only comes with age, something our friend Zengael can't seem to comprehend.

I'm frankly very glad I do Isshin-Ryu. I have trouble getting my kicks up high enough even for us, and we kick lower than most others. But dang those kicks are devastating. Who needs a head kick when I can take out your knees? I'll kick your head once it's on the ground.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The body degrades. You slow down, get weaker, and just aretn't as crisp as you used to be. Throw an illness or injury into it and life can be difficult for aging martial artist. Plainly speaking, it sucks. However, a lot of older martial artist have a lot of skill and know how to get the job done with less effort. They also seem to be craftier with experience behind them. Imagine yourself aged a bit. Are you a craftier more efficient version of yourself? Think how tough that person would be to fight.

Agreed. And many of us get stronger as we age, I think. I certainly have. Don't feel pain the same way anymore either. I love the look of horror in an opponent's face when he gives me a rockin' head shot and I grin back and say "That all you got?" and keep moving in on him.

 

[chrispillertkd]

A question for older martial artists. Exactly how much flexibility/strength/speed do you lose with age? In my Taekwondo class, there is a 63 year old man. Mr. Steve still spars and with effort he can still throw some swinging kicks ( he doesn't really snap with them ) but he can hardly get his leg up to the opponents waist. In fact during the cardio/stretching session of class, I noticed his stretch kicks barely get to his lower chest ( it looks more like a slightly high groin kick ). He can still punch though, and even though it's light sparring, I've had the pleasure of being jabbed in the face by him.

Anyway, Is this normal loss of speed/flexibility/power at that age? How well can one combat the challenges of age? Will constant martial arts training, working out, and stretching throughout my life time help combat this? ( I am quite aware that it is indeed impossible to completely counter )

It will vary depending on the person as for how much speed, strength, and flexibility that is lost. The only thing you can say sure is that you will lose some. That being said, if you're training consistently over time the lose can be minimized if you train smart. Consistency of training is key, I think, but don't over do it. My instructor is in his 60's and can still kick me in the head (and he's shorter than I am by a couple of inches), and he can do it hard.

When I saw Gen. Choi when he was 74 he had no trouble at all picking up his foot and showing various kicks with it while talking, without putting his foot down. He could kick quite high, too. He had a vertical leap that was very impressive and at one point demonstrated punching while in the air against a guy who was easily over 6 feet tall and punched downwards at his face. He got off three punches with the same hand before landing while talking about the importance of dodging. He was also very powerful and I still remember being very impressed when he was demonstrating knife-hand guarding blocks. I saw pictures of him kicking to his assistant's face when he was about 80 (doing a high twisting kick, which you deliver vertically over your shoulder to your rear flank). I later read an interview with him and he said that he practiced Taekwon-Do for an hour a day, everyday. This was on top of teaching 6-8 hours a day when he did seminars. I try to practice daily now, too, because I saw the results. It doesn't have to be a lot but you've got to be consistent.

My instructor told me a couple years ago, "As you get older your body forgets it can jump if you don't do it." The key is reminding it (about jumping, but about anything, really). The more you do it consistently over time the more you'll be able to do it, consistently over time.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The more you do it consistently over time the more you'll be able to do it, consistently over time.

I don't disagree with you at all on this, but I did want to add that joints do wear out. Nothing to do with fitness per se; cartilage just doesn't grow back and it does wear out. Lots you can do to preserve what you have, of course, but wear and tear cannot be totally avoided. If you live long enough, it affects everyone in one way or another. Keeping body weight down to the extent possible and practicing moderation as well as exercising are key, I think. I am fortunate that I am not experiencing much in that area. Some bursitis in my left shoulder; I'm told that it's part of the aging process and nothing can be done about it. Life goes on.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Absolutely. I know more than one person who has trouble with their knees after years of heavy kicking. But then, I know people who are still kicking high and with a lot of power. They might not do it as much at 60 as they did at 30, but they're still going strong. It's like anything else, there will be a decrease over time, almost invariably. Your flexibility, speed, and strength will all decrease. But you can counteract a good portion of that if you train consistently and intelligently.

I've been extremely fortunate that after 26 years of training and a lot of heavy kicking I've not had even a minor problem with either of my knees.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Grenadier]

Fitness and fatigue are double edged swords, in my opinion.

Fatigue can also be an effective training tool, when it comes to pointing out bad mechanics. This is especially true when studying kobudo, where you're swinging around a 6' long bo made of dense hardwood. Sometimes, when people practice their bojutsu kata, I notice that there are times when some of them may get fatigued after about 3-4 of the longer kata in a row. This tells me that they're not using proper mechanics (driving with the legs and hips), and are trying to use too much upper body to propel the bo.

In the end, it's certainly better to have a greater level of physical fitness. This way, you can train longer, harder, and not let fatigue be a factor, since fatigue can certainly have a way of making you perform your techniques in a more sloppy manner.

 

[MJS]

A few minutes is an eternity in a fight. Look to your sparring. How many minues do you go. Now look at an altercation where two men are intent on harming each other. Add to the equation that one just want to get away? Do you think it will last a few minutes? Highly unlikely.

LEO encounters are a realm of thier own. LEO do not operate on the standard self defense framework. First, I am not chasing anyone to end in an altercation. If someone wants to give me trouble, they are going to have to come to my space, not the other way around. My goal is not to subdue my opponent. My goal is to render him unable to attack me then leave with my body parts intact. In many ways, your job is much harder. You can't do some of the things I can get away with as a citizen defending myself. These are reasons as an LEO that physical skills are even more valuble.

The body degrades. You slow down, get weaker, and just aretn't as crisp as you used to be. Throw an illness or injury into it and life can be difficult for aging martial artist. Plainly speaking, it sucks. However, a lot of older martial artist have a lot of skill and know how to get the job done with less effort. They also seem to be craftier with experience behind them. Imagine yourself aged a bit. Are you a craftier more efficient version of yourself? Think how tough that person would be to fight.

Points taken. I'm simply saying that IMO, we shouldn't assume that a confrontation will be over in 10secs., 20, 30, etc. Of course, the idea is to get away, or defend yourself, etc, however, things may not always be that clear cut. If they have for you, thats great. I think you may've misunderstood when I was using the LEO example. That was simply to show that the confrontation can go on for a period of time. It had nothing to do with subduing vs. not subduing.

 

[WC_lun]

MJS, I understood your point LEO altercations and regular Joe Blow altercations just aren't quite the same, because the goal and the tools used to reach that goal are a bit different.

Of course anything can happen in a fight, which means if both people are screwing up badly, it could last a while. In that case, you'd need stamina. However, I only have so much training time. I would prefer to work on Wing Chun skills sets rather than spend my training time mostly on physical skill improvement. In my mind, if my skill is up to snuff, the stamina part isn't gonna be an issue. Now keep in mind I no longer compete in the sport fighting, where stamina definitley is a requirement, along with strength and speed.

 

[jks9199]

Points taken. I'm simply saying that IMO, we shouldn't assume that a confrontation will be over in 10secs., 20, 30, etc. Of course, the idea is to get away, or defend yourself, etc, however, things may not always be that clear cut. If they have for you, thats great. I think you may've misunderstood when I was using the LEO example. That was simply to show that the confrontation can go on for a period of time. It had nothing to do with subduing vs. not subduing.

If you want to get away from LEO situations... how about an elderly parent with Alzheimer's or another form of dementia who becomes combative? I know someone who had to restrain his father for several hours... I don't know all the details, so I don't know if it was continuous or intermittent -- but it went on for hours.

Or how about running far enough to be safe? Or having the misfortune to be stuck in a crowd?

While ideally a real fight is over in a few seconds -- reality has a way of tending not to be ideal and not to follow the script.

 

[lklawson]

A question for older martial artists. Exactly how much flexibility/strength/speed do you lose with age?

It depends on the person. Important factors include the persons genetics, his prior fitness levels, and how beat-to-crap his body is.

Some people have great genetics, are fit, and haven't abused their bodies. They can keep going into their 70's or later. Other folks, well...

Anyway, Is this normal loss of speed/flexibility/power at that age? How well can one combat the challenges of age? Will constant martial arts training, working out, and stretching throughout my life time help combat this? ( I am quite aware that it is indeed impossible to completely counter )

It is normal for a person's physicality to decline with age. Muscle mass decreases, important hormone levels decline, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage decline and (literally) wear out, and bones become less dense and more fragile. That's life. It happens to us all if The Reaper doesn't claim us first. You can minimize and mitigate this by lifelong exercise, good nutrition, and not doing things that bork your body (such as competing in martial arts).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk