(Fiction/theory) Fighting against the perfect sword

[Syeed Ali]

I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.

The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.

The man is superior to them in every physical way -- strength, endurance, dexterity. He is immune to simple "cuts". His limitations are with speed and experience.

Given that he has learned to be excellent with the styles of his region (think the familiar Viking and European medieval stuff), the primary vector for attack is to leverage those style weaknesses. The secondary would be the fact that he adapts quickly, but that adaptation itself can be predicted to open up for further weaknesses. (Think The Princess Bride's "I'm not really left-handed".

Some of the things which I've been considering in the order of the fight, are:

- Armor that's sacrificial, to act as bait.
- Artifice in some manner; though a shield would technically be useless, it's visual cover and could be useful for feigns. Maybe falsifying unawareness, exhaustion or wounds.
- Accepting wounds as inevitable.
- Attempting to control the sword well enough for a self-cut (how realistic is this?)
- Dodging in various ways, and going for his legs
- Attacking his hands to train his adaptation, then attacking his elbows.
- Controlling the sword -- either by baiting for a thrust and controlling its back or the flat.
- Attempting to disarm or capture.
- Unarmed combat specific for controlling the hands and working with joints

I've got ideas through varieties of unarmed martial arts, but I don't know enough about swords or other weapons. The target audience would be comfortable with the classic choreography-fu of movies and wouldn't be picky enough with actual realism.

Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords? Jujutsu seems obvious, but anything with lots of distraction and motion might work well when exaggerated in fiction.

I'm open to ideas like "Begin with Iado, play with some Baguazhang, get close and do some Judo, you need to get the disarm in and look to stylistic old wrestling for reader interest, then the nastier locks being used in early western MMA fights."

 

[jobo]

cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, theycould use a crossbow if its historically set

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords?

You may get some idea from these clips.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Dodge parrying, footwork, and excellent timing. Also look into disengages-if the person goes to parry/strike your blade and you disengage, you've got a nice strike available. Another solution, though probably tougher to put in a novel, is if you look up fencing binding-that is a way for blade contact that you can use with a significantly weaker blade, to control the interaction.

 

[drop bear]

Steal his scabbard and fight him with that.

Use a scythe. By the time he parries it the thing will be in him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If it cuts through "anything" without any problem, then your only really good choice is to shoot him.

 

[CB Jones]

If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you heroe needs an item that cannot be cut.

 

[jobo]

If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you heroe needs an item that cannot be cut.

or a pair of running shoes

 

[Flying Crane]

You need an immoveable object to counter an irresistible force.

 

[geezer]

I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially.

It cuts trivially? Wee then, just walk right in and beat the tar outta him. If he's too tough, have some friends help out. You can attend to your trivial wounds later!

Otherwise a. use projectile weapons (like Jobo said) or b. get a gang together and use spears.

Heck, our paleolithic ancestors used such techniques to beat the Neanderthal who were far stronger, and to hunt pleistocene megafauna including mammoth. That's a lot scarier than a guy with a sword that cuts trivially!

 

[Syeed Ali]

cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, they could use a crossbow if its historically set

If it cuts through "anything" without any problem, then your only really good choice is to shoot him.

This is a scenario set up as a duel with witnesses. The goal isn't just to kill the guy but to humiliate, dethrone and hopefully kill him in public; it'll be melee. I'm still contemplating poisons and magic. Dirty fighting (powders or even dirt) is definitely something I'll have to address.

You may get some idea from these clips.

Thanks. Watching the first one all the way through gives me some ideas. The sword-on-sword can't work, but there's some movement that is definitely useful to see. I'll watch the rest.

Dodge parrying, footwork, and excellent timing. Also look into disengages-if the person goes to parry/strike your blade and you disengage, you've got a nice strike available. Another solution, though probably tougher to put in a novel, is if you look up fencing binding-that is a way for blade contact that you can use with a significantly weaker blade, to control the interaction.

Timing is hard to write about. I'm wondering how to narrate the thoughts of the one side to convey some of the planning.

Re. the parry/strike -- Kung Fu Wang's first posted video shows a parry, but a faster defender could feign that parry to gain an attack.

I'll have to do more research on this "binding" you mentioned. It seems particularly valuable. Too much of this fight is forcing distance, and I want to have moments of intimacy.

Steal his scabbard and fight him with that.

Use a scythe. By the time he parries it the thing will be in him.

The sword has no scabbard because there is nothing it can rest in safely enough. It is only held, and at best it glides through the top of a table until its guard holds it up.

I also figure that stealing-range would be the range for grappling and jointwork of whatever sort.

A scythe and other heavy-ended polearm would get cut down before getting to him. (You'll notice the parry was an instinct in that video). I've considered this, and that it makes the tip a projectile weapon of sorts, which is interesting, and the remainder becomes a spear of sorts. I've already considered a spear since there is some great martial arts work with them against swords. However, I'd love to get a cleave in on an arm (you'll love how), and that doesn't work with spears.

If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you hero needs an item that cannot be cut.

Or a hero who is willing to die.

You need an immoveable object to counter an irresistible force.

This continues the thought experiment from CB Jones; a counter. I have a notion, and I'll keep thinking about that, but there mustn't be anything thorough.

Heck, our paleolithic ancestors used such techniques to beat the Neanderthal who were far stronger, and to hunt pleistocene megafauna including mammoth. That's a lot scarier than a guy with a sword that cuts trivially!

Ambush, range, pack tactics, gauntlets, terrain and a lot of other things are right out. However, there are some other circumstances where this sort of thing will definitely be explored; my goblins are proper bastards.

 

[Ivan]

I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.

The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.

The man is superior to them in every physical way -- strength, endurance, dexterity. He is immune to simple "cuts". His limitations are with speed and experience.

Given that he has learned to be excellent with the styles of his region (think the familiar Viking and European medieval stuff), the primary vector for attack is to leverage those style weaknesses. The secondary would be the fact that he adapts quickly, but that adaptation itself can be predicted to open up for further weaknesses. (Think The Princess Bride's "I'm not really left-handed".

Some of the things which I've been considering in the order of the fight, are:

- Armor that's sacrificial, to act as bait.
- Artifice in some manner; though a shield would technically be useless, it's visual cover and could be useful for feigns. Maybe falsifying unawareness, exhaustion or wounds.
- Accepting wounds as inevitable.
- Attempting to control the sword well enough for a self-cut (how realistic is this?)
- Dodging in various ways, and going for his legs
- Attacking his hands to train his adaptation, then attacking his elbows.
- Controlling the sword -- either by baiting for a thrust and controlling its back or the flat.
- Attempting to disarm or capture.
- Unarmed combat specific for controlling the hands and working with joints

I've got ideas through varieties of unarmed martial arts, but I don't know enough about swords or other weapons. The target audience would be comfortable with the classic choreography-fu of movies and wouldn't be picky enough with actual realism.

Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords? Jujutsu seems obvious, but anything with lots of distraction and motion might work well when exaggerated in fiction.

I'm open to ideas like "Begin with Iado, play with some Baguazhang, get close and do some Judo, you need to get the disarm in and look to stylistic old wrestling for reader interest, then the nastier locks being used in early western MMA fights."

Bare-handed blade catch?

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is a scenario set up as a duel with witnesses. The goal isn't just to kill the guy but to humiliate, dethrone and hopefully kill him in public; it'll be melee. I'm still contemplating poisons and magic. Dirty fighting (powders or even dirt) is definitely something I'll have to address.

Not possible. Without something capable of blocking the blade, it is impossible to fight against it at close range. Your only option is to run away and shoot them from way over there.
If you're close enough to throw dirt in their eyes, you just died.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just re-read the OP. I think there is a mistake made by many authors and film makers who create a long, drawn-out battle. Lots of description, it goes on forever. I guess that appeals to people who have no familiarity and experience with the methods and the weapons.

Personally, I think it would be more interesting to describe a fight in more realistic terms: quick, bloody, brutal, shocking (from the viewpoint of those in the middle of the melee), nothing going according to plan. And then over, with one participant dead and the other grievously wounded.

Joe Abercrombie has written some good stuff and takes more of that kind of approach.

 

[Syeed Ali]

Bare-handed blade catch?

That's too cheesy for how I want to portray things. Besides, the enemy is stronger. Working with the non-blade parts (weapon and wielder) are more likely.

Not possible. Without something capable of blocking the blade, it is impossible to fight against it at close range. Your only option is to run away and shoot them from way over there.
If you're close enough to throw dirt in their eyes, you just died.

This is why I want to stress knowledge of form and dexterity.

I think there is a mistake made by many authors and film makers who create a long, drawn-out battle. Lots of description, it goes on forever. I guess that appeals to people who have no familiarity and experience with the methods and the weapons.

Personally, I think it would be more interesting to describe a fight in more realistic terms: quick, bloody, brutal, shocking (from the viewpoint of those in the middle of the melee), nothing going according to plan. And then over, with one participant dead and the other grievously wounded.

Joe Abercrombie has written some good stuff and takes more of that kind of approach.

I hope to give the heroes a few paragraphs of a fighting chance, but you're right about the speed. I think it would be useful to have a few side-story fights to stress this and build tension.

Reading how others are doing this sort of thing is also important; thanks for the author recommendation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, they could use a crossbow if its historically set

One of my LEO friends said, "Rich, if I showed up to your place, I would ask you to submit calmly. If you did cool. If not I would back up and say 'Take the Shot'"
And I am by no means a perfect specimen .

 

[Steve]

One of my LEO friends said, "Rich, if I showed up to your place, I would ask you to submit calmly. If you did cool. If not I would back up and say 'Take the Shot'"
And I am by no means a perfect specimen .

You didn’t find that alarming, I take it?

 

[Steve]

I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.

The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.

The man is superior to them in every physical way -- strength, endurance, dexterity. He is immune to simple "cuts". His limitations are with speed and experience.

Given that he has learned to be excellent with the styles of his region (think the familiar Viking and European medieval stuff), the primary vector for attack is to leverage those style weaknesses. The secondary would be the fact that he adapts quickly, but that adaptation itself can be predicted to open up for further weaknesses. (Think The Princess Bride's "I'm not really left-handed".

Some of the things which I've been considering in the order of the fight, are:

- Armor that's sacrificial, to act as bait.
- Artifice in some manner; though a shield would technically be useless, it's visual cover and could be useful for feigns. Maybe falsifying unawareness, exhaustion or wounds.
- Accepting wounds as inevitable.
- Attempting to control the sword well enough for a self-cut (how realistic is this?)
- Dodging in various ways, and going for his legs
- Attacking his hands to train his adaptation, then attacking his elbows.
- Controlling the sword -- either by baiting for a thrust and controlling its back or the flat.
- Attempting to disarm or capture.
- Unarmed combat specific for controlling the hands and working with joints

I've got ideas through varieties of unarmed martial arts, but I don't know enough about swords or other weapons. The target audience would be comfortable with the classic choreography-fu of movies and wouldn't be picky enough with actual realism.

Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords? Jujutsu seems obvious, but anything with lots of distraction and motion might work well when exaggerated in fiction.

I'm open to ideas like "Begin with Iado, play with some Baguazhang, get close and do some Judo, you need to get the disarm in and look to stylistic old wrestling for reader interest, then the nastier locks being used in early western MMA fights."

Seems like in a work of fiction, there would be something that would counter the blade. Whether it’s something that makes the guy too weak to wield it, or confuses him, makes him hallucinate or something like that. Basically, something that affects him and renders him unable to use the sword.

or, something that neutralizes the sword itself. Makes it temporarily weak, so that it can be broken, dull, or something along those lines.

Any way you go about this, you’ll need to be clever, because at its root, this is a pretty cliched trope in martial arts type stories (books or movies). So making it seem original and surprising is going to be a real trick.

whoever mentioned joe Abercrombie was onto something, as he does a nice job of foreshadowing amd eventually describing fight scenes.

 

[Blindside]

One option in the duel is to oppose the fighter with non-contact moves against the other fighter or to parry the blade rather than meet the other sword. It isn't impossible but just really really hard.

If you are looking to take advice from movies I like the bit where Li Mu Bai uses a stick against a sword. See at 4:15

 

[hoshin1600]

Perhaps you might want to look at Aikido. I am thinking about this as if the sword was a jedi light Saber. The key to beating this guy would be to not fight the sword. Fight the man. Most often movies show lots of sword clashing but that is not realistic. You want the opponents sword to just go past, to evade it, then strike the wrists or body of your opponent. My karate instructor would always say to look at the person as a punching bag with a couple of appendages that are just in the way. In Aikido we evade the sword and cut the body.
Aikido also has techniques that control the person and steal the blade away.