Favoritism with online forum discussions

[Andrew Green]

In theory isnt everybody party to an online fight a "mutual combatant". You have to enter the contest on your own free will. Its not like a real fight where you are forced to respond.

Yes, but there are rules to any fight, regardless of someones POV they still have to follow the rules.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

From what I saw of his posts, Phil's "content" never seemed to be against the rules. It was the way he said things that got people riled up. I dont know how you can make fair "rules" about that. If the content breaks the rules fine, but his writing style? That just seems very subjective.

 

[lklawson]

However, there is something VERY wrong if one is presenting those views in an antagonistic fashion.

Martial Arts are about fighting. Think of it as "Verbal Martial Arts" eh?

MartialTalk is supposed to be a "friendly discussion forum". In case you haven't noticed, antagonizing others and condescending behavior doesn't go very far here.

Generally doesn't go very far anywhere.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Andrew Green]

Perhaps you where not privy to all the details, and as has been stated, Phil was not banned. He asked for his account to be closed.

 

[lklawson]

Yes, but there are rules to any fight, regardless of someones POV they still have to follow the rules.

A lot of Martial Arts are all about breaking the rules. Don't take a knife to a gunfight, eh?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Perhaps you where not privy to all the details, and as has been stated, Phil was not banned. He asked for his aco**** to be closed.

Perhaps not. :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum. This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point.

Actually I am not sure I do, but that doesn't really matter.

I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well. The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.

You are correct sir.

The real world is a very different place and to be honest I do not agree that Phil was always referring to real world experience.

But from time to time I did agree with Phil, much to my surprise and I generally posted it as such.
And I also believe I posted once that you can learn a lot from an opposing view point.

Name me the last time you witnessed a Jackie Chan style bar fight? How about a lion dance attack like from the Wong Fei Hung series? What about just a martial artist on martial artist fight outside a dojo but still fighting as if they were sparring? People cheat...They used modern weapons ala Guns, chemical weapons and the like. I always liked Phil's adaptability to change. Granted he was a little rough on the edges with delivery and should have been wearing a sandwich board with "Buy my book!!" on it. It doesn't negate the fact that this will be a lose to this forum. Pragmatic martial arts like Krav Maga, Silat and Kali still remain, but it was nice having another piller of realistic martial arts support around.

Look at the message not the messenger.

I have been in a few real world situations and I am not happy about it. Most fortunately it never involved guns or knives. It did once involve a bleeding IV Drug user, but I am not going to post a thing beyond that about it. I am equally as sure there are many on the boards that were less lucky than I and have had to deal with worse.

And the fact still remains that Phil was not banned, he requested this.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

The last time I heard, Phil had his own forum to discuss all of his super excellent ideas and real world experience.......you should check it out, Beau.

 

[beau_safken]

And the fact still remains that Phil was not banned, he requested this.

When did I say he was Banned? I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum. Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.

Ironically, while not banned from MartialTalk (unless they eventually decided I would be, I guess), I have voluntarily joined the ranks of the dispossessed (ranks that include various Bullshido trolls painstakingly and laborious removed from the site after trolling it for weeks). It saddens me a little not to be able to provide a realistic and practical alternative viewpoint to the many members of MartialTalk who mistakenly believe they are partaking of reasonable self-defense information (if they are even looking for such information, which is not a given)... but I've learned that no matter how much I might like to, I cannot save such people from themselves. Trying to do so leads one to the sort of policed-ideology approach that has doomed and is ruining sites on the other end of the spectrum, where in-crowd cliques drive off anyone who dares to question the party line.

It is clear to me that the community we have built at Pax Baculum represents the ideal balance for a discussion forum. We offer reasonable, informed, rational discussion on realistic self-defense, in an environment where trolls have a short shelf life, the ridiculous is ridiculed, and strong opinions are not considered forbidden for fear of upsetting those who lack emotional fortitude. I have long fought the suspicion that we are somehow special because I don't want to believe that so many other sites (and therefore their populations, with exceptions) simply don't get it. I am not happy about giving in to that suspicion even in a small way tonight. It underscores the ever-tightening, always-shrinking envelope of practical self-defense in which we choose to spend our time -- outside of which so many "martial" artists find themselves.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When did I say he was Banned? I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum. Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.

So after reading Phil's bit for some reason I find myself thinking

"Those that know what’s best for us must rise and save use from ourselves"

As I said Phil will be missed, but I still do not agree what he was posting was always "realistic and practical alternative viewpoint"

It was alternative and there is nothing wrong with that but it was not always realistic and practical.

 

[shesulsa]

In any discussion, I think it is imperative to remember that when presenting a collection of what one perceives to be facts which support one's emotional and intellectual position, one is supporting one's own opinion. Another collection of facts and observations which support another person's emotional and intellectual position is, likewise, their opinion.

The danger is when opinion is forcibly stated as truth when all that "The Truth" comprises of, really, is how well a person can argue their point and how many people they can win over by doing so.

When we stop owning our opinions as being no more and no less than what they are, we begin to enter realms which can denegrate our position. It is worrisome when what follows is blanket statements in reference to a general populus.

If a person is mindful of fair-minded discussion, that does not necessarily mean that person fights fairly when the proverbial excrement goes down, although as people who have knowledge which is perhaps above the population at large, we do have certain responsibilities and will be judged by 12 accordingly. Some of us are careful with that responsibility. Are we too careful? I'll leave that judgement for the only being I really must answer to.

 

[Lisa]

When did I say he was Banned? I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum. Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.

You did not merely state that he left you stated:

I find it insane that this place has forced out the pragmatic tactics that Phil talked about.

giving the impression that somehow Phil was not given a choice in the matter.

I would be interested in reading the entire thing as, at times, bits and pieces of a statement give rise to misconceptions on the part of those reading it. Sometimes we fill in the blanks, inappropriately.

 

[beau_safken]

I would be interested in reading the entire thing as, at times, bits and pieces of a statement give rise to misconceptions on the part of those reading it. Sometimes we fill in the blanks, inappropriately.
[/color]

No problem artyon:

Follow the link to his post.

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4817

 

[Flying Crane]

In my opinion (there's that word again), Phil's problem was his arrogance. He might have a valid point from time to time, but his delivery was so tremendously obnoxious, condescending and self-righteous that I think many people found it to be irresistable to respond. Yes, we could all set him on "ignore", but on the other hand we also have a right to respond to what he says, just as he has a right to post his own message. I agree, some of the threads escalated to sniping and personal insults, and that is unfortunate and should not have happened. But in my observation, Phil shared a full 50% of the blame for the escalations.

On several occasions I suggested to Phil, in the open discussions, that if he tried changing his delivery tactics he just might get some more productive discussions going, even among those who disagreed with him. On every occasion that I made such a suggestion, he just fortified his self-righteous position and refused to even consider such a tactic. How's that for strategy? Seems pretty inflexible to me.

On my final attempt I suggested to him that he would need to live with whatever world he built for himself, for better or for worse. Well, I hope he is content, because I really believe his own actions brought him to where he is now.

I hate to see anyone made to feel unwelcome in the threads. This forum should be open to all, no matter what their opinion. But some people show themselves to be unable to interact with others in a way that isn't constantly abraisive. It's hard for those people to find a place of welcome.

 

[Flying Crane]

No problem artyon:

Follow the link to his post.

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4817

Regarding Phil's post, I think it shows clearly the arrogance that is his main problem.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

But in my observation, Phil shared a full 50% of the blame for the escalations.

Your fingers are the only things "responsible" for anything around here. The other end of the extreme here is the constant wishy washy "its my opinion", "please dont take offense", whining that illustrates a failure to take a stand on anything. Sometimes its a good thing to stand up for what you believe in and screw what other people think.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Interesting discussion.
A few points that must be made.

1-Phil wrote some very popular and very descriptive articles on Trolling. However, he himself has referenced what he does while at other sites as trolling, or I'm sorry, "slumming".

Over the last few days I was slumming at a couple of different martial arts sites where I piss off a plurality of the posters because they're left-leaning twits, ignorant children, virtual tough guys, traditional martial artists, or some combination of all of those.

Ok, so that tells us very clearly why he was here. It wasn't to "educate" or "enlighten" us, but to cause problems. There is also an out clause in there I remember reading, on how the high and mighty "anti=troll" will often be seen as a troll. Well, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I highly doubt it's a pig.

2-Phil has his own heavily controlled little forum, where those that subscribe to his world view can enjoy existence.

3-Phil's comments, which I have sometimes agreed with, and sometimes not, were overly wordy, and often sleep inducing ejaculations of excessively dense verbiage. Or, removing the $5 words, he wrote long winded and boring crap, which could have made the same point in 1/10th the space.

4-Phil refused to follow this sites posted rules. I will quote them here.

# No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. NO insulting or personal attacks on other members - if some one insults you, do not retaliate but report the offending post using the 'report this post' button link located in each post's top right corner! Respect each others' opinions - you don't have to agree with them but please respect them.
# Rudeness, flaming, trolling, or any messages (via the forum, e-mail, or PM) that constitute a personal attack will not be tolerated. You'll only get one warning. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning.
# No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.

5-Phils posts, often done within the protection offered within his cardboard outpost that was provided here for him, were often little more than carefully crafted, meticulously worded, and tightly targeted attacks on those he disagreed with, often including the staff of this site, many who did not see eye to eye with him. Such attacks, violate the rules specified above, as well as this clauses:

A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right.

6-Every website has rules. This one has rules. Alot of them. Too many for even such a verbose writer as Phil to wade through it seems. Those rules are there to be followed, and when you break them, you should be prepared to accept those consequences like an adult. I've broken them. I got some time outs. I didn't go elsewhere and whine about it. I didn't bombard people with emails or pms screaming about how unfair it was. I took it, read some books, and when the time was up, came back. Reading through the Martialist forums, and the Bullshido forums especially, one finds numerous crybabies who have been booted from sites such as this, because of an inability or non-desire to follow those rules. I am sorry, but every society has them. Follow them, or else. This is a discussion board, not a war zone. This comment "A lot of Martial Arts are all about breaking the rules." may be true in a fight, but not here.

7-Phil will claim he wasn't given a fair shake. In my opinion he would be right. He was given great freedom to express his opinions, without being required to back it up with actual experience. He, and those who invaded this site simply to harass him, disrupted this site with their constant bickering, and yet were allowed great freedom to try to work out those differences of opinion, prior to any moderator intervention in those arguments. Both he, and they should have recieved many more warnings, many more suspensions and possibly even bans from their actions, yet the staff of this site for whatever reason, did not smack them as they deserved. That wasn't fair at all. The great patience shown by those who moderate this site in these battles was repaid with insults, rants, and censorship, as well as character assassination on other more childish and immature sites by lowbrow degenerate types, also no longer with us.

The bottom line is, Phil and his attitude wore out his welcome here, as he and it has on so many other sites. I wish him all the success in the world. But I will not miss him, or his attitude in the least.

 

[beau_safken]

:fanboy: How many freaking books of rules are there here???? Paragraph 6000? :idunno:

 

[Flying Crane]

Your fingers are the only things "responsible" for anything around here. The other end of the extreme here is the constant wishy washy "its my opinion", "please dont take offense", whining that illustrates a failure to take a stand on anything. Sometimes its a good thing to stand up for what you believe in and screw what other people think.

Are you specifically targeting me with this post?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Not really, just responding to ideas being presented. In the long run, this site is privately owned and the owners can do whatever they want. I have no problem with that. I would just hate to see all conflict ruled out here, that would become boring to the extreme.