False teaching and secret knowledge

dvcochran

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IMO, a secret can be something that may take you some time to figure it out. But when someone tells you, it's just as simple as to use a finger to poke a hole through the paper.

For example, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?

View attachment 27099P
Per the video, just unbend your arm.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Per the video, just unbend your arm.
Your opponent's fingers may dig deeply into your upper arm skin. Whether you unbend your arm or not won't make much difference.

Your opponent is controlling your balance. How can you reverse that situation?

Many Judo guys competed in Chinese wrestling tournament in Taiwan. Most Judo guys were not familiar with this strategy. I assume it's not commonly used in most Judo tournament.
 

isshinryuronin

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For example, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?

my-tearing.gif
I've got some ideas for this unfortunate situation. Once you get going around in a larger circle than the grabber, it is tough to gain control. But being pulled like this is, in and of itself, not dangerous. Kind of looks fun, actually. The grabber may not have the skills to capitalize on the situation and after he's tired of pulling you around, you may be able to counter.

Next idea. If you can, yourself, spin in a tighter arc and get inside the grabber's spin, you will find yourself spinning into his extended arm which presents several possibilities.

Of course, the best course of action would be to prevent the circular pull. Note the victim is bent at the waist. Had she not broken her structure and stayed over her hips, the attacker would have a tougher time taking control of her motion.
 

dvcochran

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Your opponent's fingers may dig deeply into your upper arm skin. Whether you unbend your arm or not won't make much difference.

Your opponent is controlling your balance. How can you reverse that situation?

Many Judo guys competed in Chinese wrestling tournament in.. Taiwan. Most Judo guys were not familiar with this strategy. I assume it's not commonly used in most Judo tournament.
Watching the video again I would still have to disagree. The guy in the black shirt would regain most of his balance and foot position by simply releasing the grip by opening his arm, even if the hand stayed on his arm (by grip or fingers digging in). It would also very likely unbalance the attacker, allowing the guy in black to counter. I think it would have been really easy to but the attacker on his butt.
 

Steve

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Your opponent's fingers may dig deeply into your upper arm skin. Whether you unbend your arm or not won't make much difference.

Your opponent is controlling your balance. How can you reverse that situation?

Many Judo guys competed in Chinese wrestling tournament in Taiwan. Most Judo guys were not familiar with this strategy. I assume it's not commonly used in most Judo tournament.
I kind of looks like the guy is giving up his side and spinning off into La La land. So, to answer the question, I think if someone did that to me, I'd ignore his grip on my arm, turn into it so that I'm squared up on him. After that, I could drive in for a single leg, or get my own grip on his arm with both of mine and just let his momentum help me turn it into an arm drag.

What would you do?
 

Buka

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Hello everyone! I registered just so that I might contribute to this thread. I have been passionate about the study of h2h fighting and martial arts since 11 years old, I'll be 60 next month. My first exposure to WCKF was around 1979-80 studying briefly with Master Alan Lamb in NYC before he went to California. I've trained with Sifu John Crescione again briefly a few years later. In the past nearly 40 years, I've trained in FMA under Guro Ray Dionaldo, Guro Mike Tetsu(WCKF&FMA), Guro Jeff Chung and others. Tai Chi under Master Bob Klein I've Boxed and done my share of full contact fighting and training in several other systems as well. I say this to provide a point of reference, I'm a life long beginner, a hacker at best. I've recently started training with Sifu Jesse Jones, a senior student of Master Anthony Arnett. Over the years I've heard all the stories about William Cheung and many other masters as well. My only comment is that if "the proof is in the pudding", and Sifu Jones was trained by Master Arnett, William Cheung taught some extremely effective techniques. Sifu Jones has some of the most effective actual fighting technique that I've ever been exposed to. Although his system of WCKF has noticeable differences from the other systems I've been exposed to, he can explain the reasons why and IMHO the combat effectiveness of their system is very, very good.
Hi Saburai. Welcome to MartialTalk, brother.
 

Buka

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If I found myself being spun like that I would pray for three seconds of good country music to come from the sky. I don't do-si-do for just anybody. She has to be wearing cowboy boots and be on good terms with my wife.

Mark Twain said, "A man who picks up a cat by the tail learns a lesson he can learn in no other way."
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What would you do?
Let's look at the situation. Both resisting and yielding are not good options.

If you resist, your opponent will borrow your resistance force, change his pulling into pushing and take you down by single leg.


If you yield, your opponent will borrow your yielding force, continue his pulling and let you to eat dirt.


Your opponent tries to multiplane your balance with his grip (either on your upper arm, or on your shirt). If you use your

- right hand to control his grabbing arm,
- left hand to push on his elbow joint, and
- cut in front of his circular movement, you can take over his control.

This is the most logical counter to deal with circular running. It may take you sometime to figure it out by yourself. But if your teacher just tell you, it's so simple.

https://i.postimg.cc/BZFH5mtn/counter-to-tear.gif
 
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geezer

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Let's look at the situation. Both resisting and yielding are not good options.

If you resist, your opponent will borrow your resistance force, change his pulling into pushing and take you down by single leg.


If you yield, your opponent will borrow your yielding force, continue his pulling and let you to eat dirt.


Your opponent tries to multiplane your balance with his grip (either on your upper arm, or on your shirt). If you use your

- right hand to control his grabbing arm,
- left hand to push on his elbow joint, and
- cut in front of his circular movement, you can take over his control.

This is the most logical counter to deal with circular running. It may take you sometime to figure it out by yourself. But if your teacher just tell you, it's so simple.

https://i.postimg.cc/BZFH5mtn/counter-to-tear.gif
In WT Biu Tse applications, we have a similar drill in which the guy being pulled counters by going with the force and stepping dynamically with the pull while simultaneously executing a circling-plucking movement with the wrist to reverse the arm grab while augmenting the force to spin and throw the first guy. He in turn would do the same, accelerating with the spin to do the movement again on you... and so on.

I don't know how well it would work in a fight, but practicing in an open area you would build up some real speed. Like whirling dervishes or circus clowns. Well ....anyway, it was really fun. Buka's square dance music would have been the icing on the cake!
 

Kung Fu Wang

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He in turn would do the same, ...
Of course when I grab your upper arm, you can rotate your arm clockwise and grab back on my upper arm too. In MA. there are many techniques that can be used to counter itself (one time someone punched at me, I punched back, our fists met). But that will be force against force, you pull me, I pull you back.

The better way is to borrow your opponent's force, you pull me, I push you. But I won't push you the same direction as your pulling. I push a different direction that make you to feel uncomfortable.

Here is a similar example. A arm drags B to the southeast direction, B pushes A to the southwest direction. B's forward stepping interrupts A's footwork and prevents A from moving behind B's back.

arm-drag-counter.gif
 
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Callen

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For example, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?

my-tearing.gif
How did the attacker in red shorts even get there? From a Wing Chun perspective, just hit the guy. The attacker in the clip leaves himself open, he even leans his head in as he goes for the spin.

IMO the guy in black could have positioned himself to immediately punch with his left hand. The very second the attacker in red shorts went to pak the lead hand, the guy in black could have fired off his left, putting him a half-beat ahead of the attacker's right-hand. This is a good example as to why it is important to train proper elbow position so the hands can hit from where ever they are at any moment.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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How did the attacker in red shorts even get there? From a Wing Chun perspective, just hit the guy.
- Both you and your opponent are on guard with right legs forward.
- You use your back left hand to parry down your opponent's leading right arm.
- You use your leading right hand to punch at your opponent's face.
- Your opponent uses left back hand to block your right punch.
- You use your right hand to grab the inside of your opponent's right upper arm, drag him, and start to run behind him.

When your back foot line up with your opponent's both feet, your opponent's back hand cannot reach to you.

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wckf92

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How did the attacker in red shorts even get there? From a Wing Chun perspective, just hit the guy.

Exactly! Well said Sir.

Not even sure what KFW is getting at...what does going around in circles have to do with the OP topic of false teachings / secret knowledge?
 

Callen

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- Both you and your opponent are on guard with right legs forward.
- You use your back left hand to parry down your opponent's leading right arm.
- You use your leading right hand to punch at your opponent's face.
- Your opponent uses left back hand to block your right punch.
- You use your right hand to grab the inside of your opponent's right upper arm, drag him, and start to run behind him.

When your back foot line up with your opponent's both feet, your opponent's back hand cannot reach to you.

Thanks for the breakdown. When I asked, how did the attacker in red shorts even get there色, it was more of a rhetorical question. I was thinking preemptively here, like to avoid getting into that situation all together.

So, to be clear, Im looking at this scenario purely from a Wing Chun practitioners perspective. Immediately this should basically tell you that my solution for this problem is going to be quite different than what our guy in black is doing in the clip, respectfully.

In my opinion, an experienced Wing Chun practitioner would not stand static and firmly planted in guard with his right shoulder forward towards an attacker like you see in the clip. Doing that puts his opposite elbow and hand in a poor position to hit, resulting in the creation of a rear hand (or dead hand) situation. The guy in black is more or less rendering his left hand useless by way of his stance, which in contrast to my training, would be considered a red flag. Ultimately, the guy in blacks rear hand would also have a tendency to become a round punch if he was even able to put it to use. And as I'm sure you already know, in Wing Chun, we want to avoid indirect round punches, static stances and single hand/dead hand situations for dozens of reasons that I wont get into here ;)

A preferred Wing Chun based solution to the video clip could be to simply face the attacker with center forward, squaring the shoulders more towards the attacker for better elbow placement, and to free-up both hands. Add active footwork and you're set. Proper angling and position can allow for good elbow placement with both hands, giving access to immediate striking with the right and left hands equally. In this example, a skilled Wing Chun practitioner could easily strike with his left hand at the very same time the attacker in red shorts goes to Pak his lead right hand. In all honesty, this is considered to be a very basic level Pak Sau response. When the way is clear, we hit.

This is precisely why we say there is no rear hand in WSLVT. We train for this. We train to develop proper elbow placement for both hands to hit equally at all times. Everything we do is in the service of hitting. We have simple drills that we start from the beginning to develop good elbow to waist punching habits, proper positioning and responsive footwork so that each hand is always available.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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squaring the shoulders .
If your opponent uses the "square stance" that both of his hands can reach you, the "separate hands" will be a better entering strategy. You separate both of your opponent's arms away from his head and occupy his center.

In other words, when you can deal with both of your opponent's arms at the same time, a clinch can be easier achieved.

- In side stance, when I deal with your right arm, your left hand can punch me.
- In square stance, When I deal with both of your arms at the same time, you don't have extra hand to punch me.

There is a good reason that strikers use jab-cross to deal with a wrestlers. As long as the wrestler cannot reach to the striker's back arm, the striker's back hand can always be a threaten to the wrestler.
 
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Callen

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If your opponent uses the "square stance" that both of his hands can reach you, the "separate hands" will be a better entering strategy. You separate both of your opponent's arms away from his head and occupy his center.

In other words, when you can deal with both of your opponent's arms at the same time, a clinch can be easier achieved.

- In side stance, when I deal with your right arm, your left hand can punch me.
- In square stance, When I deal with both of your arms at the same time, you don't have extra hand to punch me.

There is a good reason that strikers use jab-cross to deal with a wrestlers. As long as the wrestler cannot reach to the striker's back arm, the striker's back hand can always be a threaten to the wrestler.

You posted a video clip and then asked, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle? Was this a real question, or are you just baiting everyone into your narrative of hypothetical theories?

No offense, but you have completely confused me. From your response, Im not able to make a connection to your original question about the video. Surly your goal is not to just argue against Wing Chun methods, because that would be totally counterproductive on a Wing Chun forum :oops:
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You posted a video clip and then asked, what's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle? Was this a real question, or are you just baiting everyone into your narrative of hypothetical theories?

No offense, but you have completely confused me. From your response, Im not able to make a connection to your original question about the video. Surly your goal is not to just argue against Wing Chun methods, because that would be totally counterproductive on a Wing Chun forum :oops:
A: What's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?
B: In my opinion, an experienced Wing Chun practitioner would not stand static and firmly planted in guard with his right shoulder forward towards an attacker like you see in the clip.
A: I assume we are discussion when arm drag has happen and how to deal with it. We are not talking about how to prevent arm drag from happening. If there is no arm drag, there will be no arm drag counter discussion.
 
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Callen

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A: What's the best counter to deal with someone who grabs on your arm and drags you in circle?
B: In my opinion, an experienced Wing Chun practitioner would not stand static and firmly planted in guard with his right shoulder forward towards an attacker like you see in the clip.
A: I assume we are discussion when arm drag has happen and how to deal with it. We are not talking about how to prevent arm drag from happening. If there is no arm drag, there will be no arm drag counter discussion.
Fair enough, I really appreciate your explanation.

The way I see it, the circle arm drag started the very second the attacker in red shorts went for the pak on the lead hand of the guy in black. Wing Chun can interpret a counter as a preemptive action. Attacking the attack is part of the system, blurring the difference between offense and counter. Sometimes, waiting to counter an attack that you can see coming is too late.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Fair enough, I really appreciate your explanation.

The way I see it, the circle arm drag started the very second the attacker in red shorts went for the pak on the lead hand of the guy in black. Wing Chun can interpret a counter as a preemptive action. Attacking the attack is part of the system, blurring the difference between offense and counter. Sometimes, waiting to counter an attack that you can see coming is too late.
Agree that the best solution is to prevent something from happening.

A: What MA skill will you use in a bar fight?
B: Don't go to a bar.
 
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