Fake black belts

lklawson

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I would say if you were caused injury or death due to his/her training then certainly you can sue them if alive(or family members) If a fake driving instructor taught you to drive & you killed someone..is that OK?
If they were killed in the Dojo and it can be proven that it was because of the training then, yeah. If they were somehow killed outside the Dojo, then good luck proving the instructor was at fault.

in your opinion.
Good luck. Let us know what your complaint about a "fake black belt" to the BBB accomplishes. Record the phone call if it's legal. Should be entertaining.

really ...you are well informed. what was your name , style again?
If by "well informed" you mean, "he paid attention to stuff that's pretty well known" then yeah.
 
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Jimmythebull

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This goes back to there being zero regulatory control for holding a black belt. Or being a driving instructor after a one-day seminar as far as I know.
are you talking about the US as a whole or a state?
 

tkdroamer

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are you talking about the US as a whole or a state?
Not certain about each state's regulatory guidelines. To my knowledge, I have never heard of any stipulation on who wears a black belt or how they got it. Wrongful death would be a civil case.
 
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Jimmythebull

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Not certain about each state's regulatory guidelines. To my knowledge, I have never heard of any stipulation on who wears a black belt or how they got it. Wrongful death would be a civil case.
so can you be a driving instructor after 1 day? which state?
 

Oily Dragon

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And the FTC does nothing about it. It's all the consumers doing their research.

Which isn't the FTC.

Pft. Skeezy business owners fold the biz and start a new one with a different name and use variations of their own name, or even put it in someone else's name. I've seen it happen. Better Business is not all that useful for finding a skeezy biz. It's useful, sometimes, to check a biz that has a long history and few complaints but when slimy owners start getting complaints they just change names.

And then they close shop, open in a new location with a different name.

And there's not much they can do to stop it.

No, the problem in this case is there's no legal definition of "good martial arts" or "useful self defense." Linages are a legal minefield of claims and counter claims for most martial arts and the only reliable way to get a fraud ruling is to prove you paid for classes or specific services which were never actually delivered. Claiming fraud based on the claim of a "fake black belt" is not going to get you where you want to go.
Did you read that bolded part somewhere? I don't think that's true. You're talking about "good/useful" I'm talking about deceptive advertising (which is illegal in every state in the US, and federally).

Look at all the things I can make a stink about in Ohio and get action. That's before we even get to the FTC.

Consumers have protections, even against martial artists. But I think you're talking about something else, good vs. bad etc. I'm talking about lies used to take other people's money or worse.

 

lklawson

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again i will ask you, are you a member of this organisation & if you are can you prove it?
What the heck are you on about? Oily talked about using the FTC then switched gears to suing. Here's where he did:

I don't know what you're babbling about in reference to me being part of an organization. You apparently think you've found some sort of "gotcha" but, frankly you're out in left field.
 

lklawson

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Did you read that bolded part somewhere? I don't think that's true. You're talking about "good/useful" I'm talking about deceptive advertising (which is illegal in every state in the US, and federally).
Good luck doing it over claims of a "fake black belt."


Look at all the things I can make a stink about in Ohio and get action. That's before we even get to the FTC.
Good luck doing it over claims of a "fake black belt."


Consumers have protections, even against martial artists. But I think you're talking about something else, good vs. bad etc. I'm talking about lies used to take other people's money or worse.

The whole premise of the OP was about a "fake black belt" (that is the <cough> "deception") and then some vague alleged concerns about "children" getting hurt because, as was eventually explained, they try to use the martial arts stuff as "self defense" and then fail, getting hurt in the process.

There's no way you're going to be able to file an actionable complaint about alleged "self defense" techniques "not working" and a snowballs chance of getting any legal authority to take a case where your complaint is the instructor claimed he was a "black belt" but isn't, mainly because anyone can award themselves a "black belt" and for the majority of arts lineage is too disputed to help. Disputed lineage is even a problem in BJJ, which tries to be meticulous about who trained with who and who awarded who what rank.

Just not going to happen. Lucky if you weren't laughed out of the office.

Then there's this whole foolishness about government licensing of "black belts." Please, please, PLEASE push for that. I'd love to see how BJJ/MMA folks react to a panel of TKD, Shotokan, and Kung Fu "masters" setting standards for Brazilian Ju Jitsu licensing! I could sell Pay Per View of that meeting!

Honestly, I've seen this thread here on MT multiple times before. Someone complains about "fake" instructors not teaching "real fighting" or techniques that "work" (in their estimation). Someone always talks about filing a complaint with BBB or filing a Fraud complaint but it never ends up that their idea is actually actionable because there's no way to prove or disprove a black belt that will stand up to even a drunk law school drop-out. Then, as if to "fix" this problem, someone talks about government licensing of black belts. We can't even get Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do to agree with ITF Tae Kwon Do; they can't even agree if it's "Tae Kwon Do" or "Taekwondo." Does anyone really expect anything useful to come from a governmental licensing committee trying to regulate standards for martial arts from every culture in the world? Hah!

I know that it frustrates and offends people that someone they think is "fake" is teaching martial arts but there are really only two things you can do about it. The first one is "jack" and I think you know the second.
 
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Jimmythebull

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What the heck are you on about? Oily talked about using the FTC then switched gears to suing. Here's where he did
It was a simple question which you clearly can't or won't answer directly.
So therefore the logical conclusion is you're not a member of the Organisation & can't answer for them.
 

lklawson

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It was a simple question which you clearly can't or won't answer directly.
So therefore the logical conclusion is you're not a member of the Organisation & can't answer for them.
Ooo! Ooo! GOTCHA! He won't answer a question about something that's nonsensical! I win! Yay me! I think I should award myself a black belt! :rolleyes:
 

Oily Dragon

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Good luck doing it over claims of a "fake black belt."

Good luck doing it over claims of a "fake black belt."
Do you have personal experience with this? Is that why you're repeating yourself? You seem frustrated with this topic. Or do you just not trust consumer protection agencies in general, and believe martial artists are particularly above the law? Because again, I totally disagree with you, that martial arts schools can somehow steer past consumer protection laws in your state, or any other, or federal truth-in-advertising laws.

Really though, If you're running any sort of martial arts service under fraudulent terms, you can be sued in Ohio, sued Federally, and reported to at least a dozen different agencies. And that's assuming you're not, say, a registered sex offender, or committing some other crime like bedding your minor students.
The whole premise of the OP was about a "fake black belt" (that is the <cough> "deception")
This was the important part of the OP's videos.

"Fake" isn't a black or white issue. "issued by X" is the issue, if you sell martial arts classed with claims like that, you could find yourself in legal trouble, the least of which is the return of funds to one person, the other end is losing your business.

This is a business card. If anything on this card is false, there's room for petition.

1664560241376.png
 

Oily Dragon

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It was a simple question which you clearly can't or won't answer directly.
So therefore the logical conclusion is you're not a member of the Organisation & can't answer for them.
I like it when one person tries to explain to everyone what I did/said, when everyone here is fully capable of reading English.

He's basically assuming he's the smartest person in the room. And he's not even addressing my points, he's off on his own about good/bad, even when presented specific laws in his own state. I'm saying there's a process, he's making philosophy arguments about the process being broken, etc....might as well be talking about the overall justice system, another wasted day discussion.

Let it be, bull. It's the internet way.

You can't even use the word "free" freely, in OH, in commercial advertising, without potentially violating the law.

 

jks9199

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful. This is a topic that is inherently close to fraudbusting, as well as on that can quickly become very heated. Don't go down those roads.

jks9199
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lklawson

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Do you have personal experience with this? Is that why you're repeating yourself?
Once there was a preacher at a church who was eloquent, learned, and beloved by his congregation. One Sunday he gave a particularly compelling sermon and was much appreciated by the congregants. "Good job, Preacher" and "Wonderful lesson, Preacher," they lauded as they shook his hand on the way out. The next Sunday he gave exactly the same sermon. The congregation was a bit perplexed but assumed he had simply forgotten and accidentally brought the same notes as last time. They still congratulated him on a good sermon but it as more perfunctory than anything else. The third Sunday, he gave the same sermon yet again. This time the congregation's leadership approached him and asked him plainly, "Preacher, why do you keep giving the same sermon?" With a stern and sad voice, but loving eyes, he replied, "when you finally learn this lesson, I'll move on to the next."


You seem frustrated with this topic.
It is true that intransigent people can be frustrating.


Or do you just not trust consumer protection agencies in general, and believe martial artists are particularly above the law? Because again, I totally disagree with you, that martial arts schools can somehow steer past consumer protection laws in your state, or any other, or federal truth-in-advertising laws.
Again, good luck getting either criminal charges or a successful civil suit over claims of "his black belt is fake."


Really though, If you're running any sort of martial arts service under fraudulent terms, you can be sued in Ohio, sued Federally, and reported to at least a dozen different agencies. And that's assuming you're not, say, a registered sex offender, or committing some other crime like bedding your minor students.
You can sue for anything. Winning, on the other hand...


This was the important part of the OP's videos.

"Fake" isn't a black or white issue.
It is when you try to get the law involved.
 

lklawson

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I like it when one person tries to explain to everyone what I did/said,
I don't have to "explain" it, just remind you that you wrote it, even if you don't like being reminded of what you wrote. I understand why you don't like being reminded of what you claimed because, well, it's patently wrong.


He's basically assuming he's the smartest person in the room. And he's not even addressing my points, he's off on his own about good/bad, even when presented specific laws in his own state. I'm saying there's a process, he's making philosophy arguments about the process being broken, etc....might as well be talking about the overall justice system, another wasted day discussion.
Nope. You keep claiming that you can get criminal charges out of the FTC by claiming Fraud for a "fake black belt." You can't. You also keep claiming that the BBB can be super helpful with "fake black belt" schools. They aren't. These are your statements. Both of your base claims are just wrong.

I've noticed that you've finally given up trying to defend that, without recanting your claims, and have now switched to "well, I can sue..."

You can't even use the word "free" freely, in OH, in commercial advertising, without potentially violating the law.

Of course you can. :rolleyes:

It just actually has to be free and not a hidden fee or raising the cost elsewhere. It says it right there in ORC. "It is the express intent of this rule to prohibit the practice of advertising or offering goods or services as "free" when in fact the cost of the "free" offer is passed on to the consumer by raising the regular (base) price of the goods or services that must be purchased in connection with the "free" offer."
 
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Jimmythebull

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Do you have personal experience with this? Is that why you're repeating yourself? You seem frustrated with this topic
He's definitely not in the Organisation he speak about repeatedly so therefore He's just giving his opinions, which is ok but he shouldn't name Organisations He's "probably" not involved with.
 

Oily Dragon

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He's definitely not in the Organisation he speak about repeatedly so therefore He's just giving his opinions, which is ok but he shouldn't name Organisations He's "probably" not involved with.
He just also ignored the mod warning and called me "intransigent". Ouch, yet another personal attack. This guy.

Oh well, some people never learn.

I could post the specific Ohio law that addresses illegal martial arts advertising in his state, but that will probably just enrage him further. He needs to have the final say.
 

Oily Dragon

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Nope. You keep claiming that you can get criminal charges out of the FTC by claiming Fraud for a "fake black belt." You can't. You also keep claiming that the BBB can be super helpful with "fake black belt" schools. They aren't. These are your statements. Both of your base claims are just wrong.
I never made either of these claims. I never brought up the BBB, you did.

And I never said the FTC hands out criminal charges, did I? Pretty sure I've been saying all this time these are civil issues (unless you have been screwing your students under the age of consent). That said, the FTC will refer criminal suspicions to the DOJ.

Identity theft is criminal fraud too, so if you open up shop claiming to be a famous instructor and you are not, you're gonna both civil fraud (from people you defraud) and criminal fraud charges (from state prosecutors).

Your combativeness can leave now. Ala peanut butter sandwiches!!
 
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