Fake black belts

Jimmythebull

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Anyone experienced this? Not just BJJ but in any art. Luckily I've never come across this myself. It's dangerous though if this guy was teaching kids.
 
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Jimmythebull

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I mean do these guys think no one will expose them?
 

Bill Mattocks

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In the USA, there is no legal system of regulation for the awarding of belts. Literally anyone can claim to be a black belt of anything, and there's nothing anyone can do to them (legally) to put a stop to it.

There are egregious cases such as the ones you see on YouTube of people claiming black belts who get their comeuppance from others who are actually skilled.

However, as much as we love to be outraged by these most obvious and clear misrepresentations of martial arts ranks and supposed prowess, the sad fact is that many martial arts instructors are not good teachers and not qualified martial artists. Even when they have legitimate lineages and were properly awarded their ranks and degrees. The fact is, we're not all exceptional. By definition, most of us are average, and half of us are worse than that.

A black belt doesn't confer mastery. Even a high dan black belt doesn't mean much. It all comes down to the person wearing it and what they can and can't do, what they can and cannot teach.

Fake black belt? Half of all black belts are fake in that sense. Or, if you want to avoid insulting black belts, let's say that black belts simply are not all that and a bag of chips. There are some highly skilled martial artists and instructors; their belt has little to do with that, it's just something they've also got.
 

Rich Parsons

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In the USA, there is no legal system of regulation for the awarding of belts. Literally anyone can claim to be a black belt of anything, and there's nothing anyone can do to them (legally) to put a stop to it.

There are egregious cases such as the ones you see on YouTube of people claiming black belts who get their comeuppance from others who are actually skilled.

However, as much as we love to be outraged by these most obvious and clear misrepresentations of martial arts ranks and supposed prowess, the sad fact is that many martial arts instructors are not good teachers and not qualified martial artists. Even when they have legitimate lineages and were properly awarded their ranks and degrees. The fact is, we're not all exceptional. By definition, most of us are average, and half of us are worse than that.

A black belt doesn't confer mastery. Even a high dan black belt doesn't mean much. It all comes down to the person wearing it and what they can and can't do, what they can and cannot teach.

Fake black belt? Half of all black belts are fake in that sense. Or, if you want to avoid insulting black belts, let's say that black belts simply are not all that and a bag of chips. There are some highly skilled martial artists and instructors; their belt has little to do with that, it's just something they've also got.

I like your post.
I like pictures.
** Shh no comments about coloring, that will come later **

In just two (2) Sigma on gets 95% of the distribution

Within one (1) Sigma 68% .

So, Yes most are not good or exceptional
And if you and in the second degree of freedom (* Measuring both instruction and performance *)
the percentages go down even more to get exceptional in both.





1664301161243.png



1664301273902.png


1664301351079.png
 

lklawson

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Anyone experienced this? Not just BJJ but in any art. Luckily I've never come across this myself.
Why do you care? Doesn't affect you. Might actually be good for you.

It's dangerous though if this guy was teaching kids.
What evidence do you have that a "fake" black belt puts children in danger?
 

Bill Mattocks

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What evidence do you have that a "fake" black belt puts children in danger?

I don't have any direct evidence. But overall, I think if anyone is taught to defend themselves, whether they are taught poorly, or by people who are not themselves able to defend themselves, or who just don't learn or practice the techniques well enough, they can be hurt if they choose to employ those techniques in self-defense.

I mean, I've run into people who insist they 'took karate' as children but they think it's BS because (imagine someone with fists on hips, facing an attacker head on) the methods taught "won't work." I never know if they didn't stay long enough to learn properly, if they were taught badly, if they were just too lazy to learn past the basics, or what. But yes, if they square up in a fight with their hands on their hips, they're probably going to get their clocks cleaned. So based on what they think they know about karate, it indeed does not work.

I'd call that danger if people believed erroneous things and based their actual self-defense on it.
 
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Jimmythebull

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I don't have any direct evidence. But overall, I think if anyone is taught to defend themselves, whether they are taught poorly, or by people who are not themselves able to defend themselves, or who just don't learn or practice the techniques well enough, they can be hurt if they choose to employ those techniques in self-defense.

I mean, I've run into people who insist they 'took karate' as children but they think it's BS because (imagine someone with fists on hips, facing an attacker head on) the methods taught "won't work." I never know if they didn't stay long enough to learn properly, if they were taught badly, if they were just too lazy to learn past the basics, or what. But yes, if they square up in a fight with their hands on their hips, they're probably going to get their clocks cleaned. So based on what they think they know about karate, it indeed does not work.

I'd call that danger if people believed erroneous things and based their actual self-defense on it.
and of course it織s plain fraudulent to charge people money for teaching wrong techniques because they are not what they profess to be.
 
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Jimmythebull

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I mean why should some Fraud Black Belt get away with taking money of people under false pretences. A Black belt is an award. OK not like a military award but still ....
 

Bill Mattocks

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and of course it織s plain fraudulent to charge people money for teaching wrong techniques because they are not what they profess to be.
I don't think it's that black and white or simple, to be honest. I understand what you're saying, I don't disagree that people who teach anything should be qualified to do so.

However, with regard to martial arts, we have to ask what's the actual claim? There's martial arts for exercise, for sport, for tradition, for self-defense, and combinations of all of the above.

Then we have to ask who judges? I'm certainly not qualified to say if instructor X is qualified to teach any style other than my own, and to be honest, I sincerely doubt it about my own style, despite any experience I might have. I've seen great karateka who simply could not teach, and coaches who never made the cut who turned out champions over and over again because they understood and could transmit that which they could not themselves do.

And of course, with no official qualifications for any given style, and anyone able to make their own style and make themselves the head of it, now what?

A lot is down to students as well. I've seen a few competitors who were products of chain-style franchises and they were not only excellent tournament competitors, I suspect they'd be able to fight pretty well in self-defense situations as well.

At least for adults, I suspect that much of this comes down to caveat emptor. We're responsible as students to honestly judge our own capabilities, our instructors, and what we're getting out of our training. I certainly hope I'm not fooling myself about my own abilities, but in the end, it's on me.

I'd just ask if you feel that something needs to be done, what would you propose?
 

Bill Mattocks

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I mean why should some Fraud Black Belt get away with taking money of people under false pretences. A Black belt is an award. OK not like a military award but still ....
A black belt is a belt. It gains its meaning by the person who wears it, really. I can buy a black belt on Amazon, and get a bunch of certificates of promotion on eBay, and join an association of black belts and pay for inclusion in a couple halls of fame and hang all that stuff up on the wall and open up my dojo and start teaching.

Would that be fraudulent? I'd posit that it's morally and ethically wrong, but it's certainly not against the law.

And the funny part is, what if I could actually fight and teach people how to fight effectively? I assume that people who fake their black belts and backgrounds are utterly useless, but I know legit black belts who can't do much at all, and a few street fighters who have no belts but could hurt me in a very rapid and bad way.
 

lklawson

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I don't have any direct evidence. But overall, I think if anyone is taught to defend themselves, whether they are taught poorly, or by people who are not themselves able to defend themselves, or who just don't learn or practice the techniques well enough, they can be hurt if they choose to employ those techniques in self-defense.

I mean, I've run into people who insist they 'took karate' as children but they think it's BS because (imagine someone with fists on hips, facing an attacker head on) the methods taught "won't work." I never know if they didn't stay long enough to learn properly, if they were taught badly, if they were just too lazy to learn past the basics, or what. But yes, if they square up in a fight with their hands on their hips, they're probably going to get their clocks cleaned. So based on what they think they know about karate, it indeed does not work.

I'd call that danger if people believed erroneous things and based their actual self-defense on it.
So there's no difference between the usual "keroddy sux and doesn't actually work" canard and the "fake blackbelt" hysteria? That's not actual evidence that "fake black belts are dangerous to children"

And it all comes down to the EXCEPTIONALLY SUBJECTIVE theories of what each person believes "actually works."

Same ol' same ol'. I don't see anything to get worked up over.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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and of course it織s plain fraudulent to charge people money for teaching wrong techniques because they are not what they profess to be.
Says what lawyer and what law? Who says "wrong techniques?" You? You know that "fraud" is a legal thing, right?
 
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Jimmythebull

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I'd just ask if you feel that something needs to be done, what would you propose?
prosecute them & close them down
Then we have to ask who judges? I'm certainly not qualified to say if instructor X is qualified to teach any style
people from their style & a valid organisation. really that simple.
I certainly hope I'm not fooling myself about my own abilities, but in the end, it's on me.
yes true...but my problem is if you織re fooling others with your wisdom...or lack off.


A lot is down to students as well. I've seen a few competitors who were products of chain-style franchises and they were not only excellent tournament competitors, I suspect they'd be able to fight pretty well in self-defense situations as well.
I doubt it. are you one of these factory Black Belts?
 

lklawson

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to me it織s just the same as what you Americans call "stolen Valor" I mean there is an Act i believe

Sorry, but there is simply no equivalency between Stolen Valor and claiming to be a "black belt" in something.

I'm not sure you're actually worked up about this at all. I think you're just trying to get other people worked up about it. Frankly, it really isn't that big a deal.
 
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Jimmythebull

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A black belt is a belt. It gains its meaning by the person who wears it
no it represents an organisation or federation who have tested that individual to a said standard. If that said person has not been tested by any such organisation then he/she is a fraud. Really that simple.
would you send your kids to a teacher you織ve never checked out?

Would that be fraudulent? I'd posit that it's morally and ethically wrong, but it's certainly not against the law.
can you do the same as a medical physician? would that be fraud? If not then what would you do if because of his lack of qualifications you were injured?

and a few street fighters who have no belts but could hurt me in a very rapid and bad way.
there certainly is..but are they taking classes & charging money from students?
Training with a hard buddy in a home gym is not the same is it?
 

Bill Mattocks

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prosecute them & close them down

people from their style & a valid organisation. really that simple.

yes true...but my problem is if you織re fooling others with your wisdom...or lack off.



I doubt it. are you one of these factory Black Belts?
I don't know what law you'd use to prosecute any 'fake' black belts. But feel free to file police reports.

I've been gentle up to now, but again I will say a bit more clearly, I think *most* black belts are unqualified when it comes down to it. Mathematically, half of all black belts are below average, and there's a lot of correctly promoted black belts in legitimate styles with well-known masters and recognized lineages that just flat-out suck, in my own opinion. I mean they teach garbage and they can't fight their way out of paper bags. But they are completely legit by all known standards. So how do we deal with all of those? Shall we go back to dojo challenges?

I earned my black belt the traditional way, from a well-known and respected instructor in a style that's known world-wide and respected as well. That doesn't mean I'm highly qualified, or a good teacher, or can defend myself well. It means what it means. I met the standards set by my organization, style and my instructors and was promoted accordingly based on their judgment.
 

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