EXTRA: Jimmy Swaggert back in the news!!

[rmcrobertson]

This week, the Rev. Jimmy Swaggert sorta kinda apologized for a comment he made last Sunday as he was preaching....in the course of speaking against gay marriage, the Rev remarked that if any gay person so much as looked at him, "that way," he'd kill 'em and tell God that he was dead. Wild applause ensued.

The Rev now claims that he never meant anything bad, and that he's used the tag-line, "I'd kill 'em and tell God they were dead," hundreds of times.

Lovely. I feel much better now, don't you?

 

[Xequat]

Wow. I caught the tail end of that story on the radio and thought I must have been imagining things. He really said that? Jeez, it's one thing to be anti-gay, but to kill them and tell God they died? Kinda sick. I mean, I enjoy hanging out with girls who like guys, so why not hang out with a guy who likes guys, too? I might think it's bad taste, but who are we to judge?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Wow, he must have taken a lot of heat for that comment for him to have apologized for it.

 

[Flatlander]

Had he done so in Canada he'd be arrested for hate crimes. And I would have applauded.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I just can't understand hating people that much - who have never harmed you or the people you love. While ostensibly preaching the message of God's love.

People are insane.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Had he done so in Canada he'd be arrested for hate crimes. And I would have applauded.

I'd like to clarify about hate crimes. Do they basically make the punishment tougher for crimes that are motivated by hatred of particular social/political groups? For example, you get longer jail sentence if you murder someone because of their race, as opposed to because they stole something?

If this belongs in another thread or is too off-topic, my apologies.

 

[Xequat]

Naw, it probably only belongs in another thread if we want to discuss its merits or something, but asking for a definition should be OK, I think. And, yeah, that's pretty much the definition. If I light a burning cross on a white person's lawn, I might just get arrested for vandalism or arson, but if it's in a black person's lawn, then it would also be a hate crime, as far as I understand it.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I see. Sounds perfectly in line with due process and everything. Thank you. :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

I'd like to clarify about hate crimes. Do they basically make the punishment tougher for crimes that are motivated by hatred of particular social/political groups? For example, you get longer jail sentence if you murder someone because of their race, as opposed to because they stole something?

If this belongs in another thread or is too off-topic, my apologies.

In regards to punishment, the sentence is, of course, determined by the judge. Generally, there will be a number of factors that are taken into account when determining an appropriate sentence, hopefully motivation by hatred being one of them. There is no law specifically dealing with that, though, to the best of my knowledge.

On this page, I was able to find a reasonably clear definition of what constitutes a hate crime in Canada. A few noteworthy excerpts:



[font=Verdana,Arial]

[font=Verdana,Arial]Criminal Code of Canada: Hate Provisions - Summary[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial]"Hate" is defined as a crime under two parts of Canada’s Criminal Code: sections 318 and 319. To convict anyone under the Code, very specific proof is required: both of the criminal act itself, and of the intention or motivation to commit the crime. It isn’t enough that someone has said something hateful or untrue; the courts will only find someone guilty if they contravened the Code exactly, and if they did it deliberately.[/font]​

​

[font=Verdana,Arial]Section 318: Advocating Genocide[/font]​

[font=Verdana,Arial]The criminal act of "advocating genocide" is defined as supporting or arguing for the killing of members of an "identifiable group" — persons distinguished by their colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. The intention or motivation would be the destruction of members of the targeted group. Any person who promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence, and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.[/font]​

[font=Verdana,Arial]Section 319(1): Public Incitement of Hatred[/font]​

[font=Verdana,Arial]The crime of "publicly inciting hatred" has four main elements. To contravene the Code, a person must:[/font]​

[font=Verdana,Arial]​

• communicate statements,
• in a public place,
• incite hatred against an identifiable group,
• in such a way that there will likely be a breach of the peace.

[/font]
Under section 319, "communicating" includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; a "public place" is one to which the public has access by right or invitation, express or implied; and "statements" means words (spoken, written or recorded), gestures, and signs or other visible representations.

All the above elements must be proven for a court to find an accused guilty of either:

• an indictable offence, for which the punishment is imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
• an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Section 319(2) defines the additional offence of communicating statements, other than in private conversation, that wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group.
​

[/font]​

​

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I'm curious.... Would it be possible for someone in the US to bring a case against Swaggart for encouraging or preaching about committing hate crimes? I'm assuming the case would be more effective if coming from a gay/bisexual person or group.

I'd love to see that.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, here's a mildly-weird idea...if you birned a cross on a "white," family's lawn, and you could be shown to have done it because you thought they were black, you'd probably be guilty of "hate crime."

Personally, this isn't the first time for the Rev Jimmy. Wasn't he the guy listening adoringly while Pat Robertson (name sucks) went off to the effect that 9/11 had been God's judgment for lesbians, lawyers and the ACLU among others?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Personally, this isn't the first time for the Rev Jimmy. Wasn't he the guy listening adoringly while Pat Robertson (name sucks) went off to the effect that 9/11 had been God's judgment for lesbians, lawyers and the ACLU among others?

Shnikes. I'll have to find the reports on this - and I don't say that because I don't believe you, but because I'd like to read this.

Again - people are insane.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since I'm feeling guilty about the whole playground thing (well, guilty and a tad pissed), I looked it up.

It wasn't Swaggert, but Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

Source: http:/www.snopes.com/rumors/falwell.htm

 

[heretic888]

Careful, Rob, I'm startin' to get that warm-and-fuzzy feeling.

It never ceases to amaze me the sheer number of Christians that blatantly ignore that simple injunction: "Love thy neighbor." Or, to be even more profound (and, well, Pythagorean): "Love thy enemy."

*sigh*

 

[shesulsa]

rmcrobertson, I find it interesting that I generally agree with your point of view on so many things but that the things we disagree on we engage in very heated debate. Curious.

I don't like evangelists period.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

You all remember that Swaggart was caught with a hooker way back...and apologized to his flock for sinning, etc.

So...I've got a ZIPPY idea. It is both prurient and perverse in its perfection.

We get a really convincingly hot drag queen and set up a little sting operation for Jimmy and his jimmy. We get it all on video and then go public with it. We'll call it "Operation Blow Against Bigotry". Some of you might think this idea sucks, and it does in its own unique way...but I think it'd make a point.

Further, it would bring fame to those of us on Martialtalk who take part in it. We could sell the video on the internet, or to Larry Flynt. I might get interviewed by Paula Zahn, even. My life would then be complete.

What say ye?


Regards,


Steve

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Great idea, the only problem is convincing one of the board members to act the role of the drag queen









And my answer is no.

 

[Xequat]

That's a great idea! Jimmy Swaggert is great...for me to poop on! That or we could just kill him and tell God that he died. Just kidding, don't call the secret service. Heck, for those kinds of laughs, I'll be the guy that dresses up in drag just to set up that jerk.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm. Interesting plan...and this IS a martial arts forum, if ya know what I'm saying...

 

[Mark Weiser]

And to think at one time I considered very seriously on attending his Bible College to get into the Ministry. We call that a near miss.

Anyway I have found that many Christian Leadership types suffer from some form of Delusional Ideation in regards to the real world and "Christian" mindset. They live and breath different than the rest of us. So I wonder who the real terrorist are these days. In regards to hate speech such as Swaggert, Robertson, Falwell.