Ephedra Debate - Was Re: Creatine, to take or not to take

[Nightingale]

the kid could get ephedra by walking into any GNC and buying it. Even though the bottle may say "not for people under 18" stores like Target, GNC, and other health stores will still sell it. I know this for a fact, because my friend sent his little sister over to GNC to get his xenadrine while he was shopping in another store for his mom's birthday present. Lizzie is twelve years old, and they sold it to her! They sold it to her because its legal to sell it to her.

With regards to your "cigarettes and alcohol" argument... I find it interesting that you are comparing something that you say is good for you to things that are so obviously bad. People are aware of the risks of cigarettes and alcohol. The surgeons general warning is printed right there on the package. Not so with ephedra. People don't know the risks. (FDA v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., No. 98-1152 (U.S. 03-21-2000), the supreme court ruled that the FDA didn't have the authority to go after tobacco companies, which is why they aren't). We have strict cigarette and alcohol regulations, but ephedra is completely unregulated. However, the burden of proof is on the FDA, and they must conduct studies to prove unsafety before they can act to remove it.

And I find it rather ironic that the site you referred me to to check on ephedra's "positives" is trying to sell me something! of course they're going to say they have a good product. They want to make money! I've researched the internet, and the only articles I'm finding that say ephedra is harmless are on sites from people trying to sell it to me. And the other articles all say there are significant health risks.

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Hi i used to take creatine about 4 months ago but stoped because the pill form was causing stomach problems. I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out. I just 500g of Creatine MOnohydrate to get stronger but not sure if i should take it. Thinking of my stomach and prehaps the long term problems that no one will know about intil ten years from now. My doctor said its ok to take it but, Is there any risks and what do you think made my stomach all messed up when i was taking it,

If taken correctly you can get massive gains from creatine. Having said that I know a few guys who are monsters and cut who eat the right foods balancing them right and have amazing results. You just need commitment.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[cassidy]

nightingale go to musclemag.com they won't sell you anything and search it. Have you ever tryed it. I have off and on for five years along with numerous friends and family. Oh and by the way we are all unhealthy and dying from it. Please help us and send donations because the FDA didn't warn us of the risks.

 

[Nightingale]

oh, they won't try to sell me something?

on their main page, I searched for "ephedra" just like you told me to... and the first thing it brings up is a PAGE WHERE I CAN SPEND $80 TO ORDER IT!!!

Please show me an impartial study done by a scientific researcher who isn't trying to sell me anything.

 

[cassidy]

go to the forum to sign and go to mens suplements and do a search for goodness sakes when it says log in my login is cassidy and my password is ##### go ahead and search, you'll find a lot. I personally e-mailed you my pass word so you can just go on and research it.

 

[Nightingale]

I went to your forum...

It was basically a bunch of random people chatting. what I heard about ephedra was basically opinion without any science to back it up. (and many ephedra horror stories about people blacking out, having reflux, heart problems, and other issues) I'm not interested in opinion. I want you to show me a good, solid, scientific study by a reputable researcher that supports ephedra as healthy.

I'm not denying that the ECA (Ephedra/Ephedrine, Caffeine, Aspirin) stack helps people lose weight. It helps, and it does what it claims to do. My objection to it is that although it helps people lose weight, it can also kill them. And I've seen the scientific studies to back that up. Please show me one good, solid research study or article that supports your opinion that was not published in a muscle magazine, but in a scientific journal.

 

[cassidy]

Yes that is true I will find some,also can't one slip of a kenpo/karate strike kill someone so should we all right the senators and congressmen about it and shut down schools because what we learn is lethal and could turn deadly. Supplements should be someones choice not the governments just like taking martial arts is or should we just become a communist country.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by cassidy

Yes that is true I will find some,also can't one slip of a kenpo/karate strike kill someone so should we all right the senators and congressmen about it and shut down schools because what we learn is lethal and could turn deadly. Supplements should be someones choice not the governments just like taking martial arts is or should we just become a communist country.

The above argument could also be used to argue for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, and other illegal drugs.

The government has a responsibility for the safety of its people. It walks a fine line between safeguarding the lives of its citizens, and allowing personal choice. The supreme court is consistantly making decisions over where exactly this line exists.

My issue with these drugs isn't that people take them to lose weight... its that people take them to lose weight and aren't aware of the risks they are taking with their health, because the drugs are marketed as something that is good for you. People are made aware of the risks of tobacco and alcohol and illegal drugs. However, public education about supplements is just beginning, and people are just starting to realize that just because a store sells it doesn't mean its safe. Americans are used to relying on the FDA to protect them from harmful products. The FDA can regulate food. The FDA can regulate medications. The manufacturers have to prove that it's safe before it can ever be sold. Not so with supplements. Someone could bottle a poison and sell it as a supplement, and they could continue to do so LEGALLY until the FDA had time to run studies and prove the drug unsafe.

I spoke with my doctor about this drug. Her response was "please don't take it. Its dangerous. I've had several patients get sick by taking ephedra." My doctor specializes in sports medicine and was the official physician for both the Rams and the Angels at one time. She's board certified in internal medicine, emergency medicine, and sports medicine. 0 I'm taking her advice to heart. She told me that "a big problem with those drugs is that you can't stay on them forever, and when you stop taking them, you can gain rediculous amounts of weight because your body is used to so many outside stimulants. You end up doing more harm than good. You're better off with a good diet and exercise plan. You won't see results as quickly, but you'll look better and feel better longer, and you're not risking your health doing it."

 

[cassidy]

Just curious did she say any supplements would be beneficial without the risks. I played in the braves minor league system for two years and we had tables of supps such as protein ,glutamine ,creatine,zma and aminos so I was just wondering what she said since our doctors approved ours.

 

[Nightingale]

I asked her specifically only about ephedra/ephedrine and the ECA stack.

However, she has recommended some supplements to me and my family on several occasions, so I can tell you she is not completely against supplements. She just supports good diet and nutrition over quick fixes like supplements, because some supplements are dangerous, and once you stop taking the supplement, you discover that you haven't really done anything to solve the problem, because it comes back as soon as you're off the drug. If you make lifestyle changes with diet and exercise, those changes tend to stick.

 

[cassidy]

I'm not asking about lifestyle changes I have been living a natural bodybuilder lifestyle for about eight years and a martial arts lifestyle for almost twenty years with blackbelts in four styles.

 

[Nightingale]

how is your lifestyle natural if you're taking supplements? Are they all herbal supplements or something?

 

[cassidy]

Obviously you are new to working out or you just don't. Natural is considered anything without steroids or growth hormones the natural oganizations I compete in have drug tsts and all. Natural I am informed you are not. Educate yourself on thing s before making comments you know nothing about. It makes you look foolish.

 

[Nightingale]

http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/

funny... why do they put ephedra/ephedrine on their list of "restricted substances" then?

And I am certainly not new to working out. I have been involved in martial arts for 15 years now and have worked out on a regular basis. I also consult regularly with both a doctor and a nutritionist regarding diet and/or supplements. However, I don't bodybuild and would never want to. I'm fit, toned, and happy that way. Please note that this is a MARTIAL ARTS bulletin board, not a bodybuilding one. Almost everyone here works out, and the vast majority of us don't bodybuild.

Personally, my training regimen includes kenpo five days a week, plus weights and cardio in the gym on mondays, wednesdays, and fridays. This schedule has been pretty consistant for the last five or six years.

 

[cassidy]

Each natural organization is different I competed in the natural universe and musclemania and it is not banned. Of course it is a martial arts forum but this is a healt section and someone asked a question and started a debate, I post questions and answer them on the martial arts forum.

 

[arnisador]

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[cassidy]

It started that way in almost twenty years of martial I have been taught respect,humility,integrity, and standing up for yourself and what you think is right. However this person has no right to question my integrity and who is he to question who I compete with and what my organization rules are. Do I question who he studies with no. Does he question everything I say in a smart a## way yes. I don't need to take lip from a yellow belt in kenpo and I never will. I have a fourth degree in three styles and a second degree in one style. These virtues and standing up to know it alls who don't know what they are talking about has been taught to me for a long time. If you were the top sport karate instructor and had someone come in and tell you that you were doing something wrong because he heard this and that would you just sit back and let him criticize? I think not ,so do whatever you think is necesarry for your forum of no it alls from heresay. Since I heard that wally jay is teaching the wrong way I have to go correct him now on how to teach small circle jujitsu. Even though I never tried the art I'm sure I know more because my friends and peers told me so. PEACE

 

[Nightingale]

actually, I'm a brown belt in kenpo. However, I recently started at a new school because I moved, and chose to remove my brown belt and exchange it for a white belt, because the new school had some differences in the way they taught some things, and I felt that I needed to learn it their way. I've been involved in kenpo for 15 years.

and, I'm a SHE.

I question you because you have placed yourself and your opinions in a public forum. Your posts have opened yourself to questions. That is the nature of Martial Talk.

You have also not given any scientific research to back up those opinions, even though you've been asked for it repeatedly, which is why I have continued to question you. Show me even one scientific study by a reputable researcher (translation: someone who isn't trying to sell the product, has nothing to gain other than scientific knowledge, and is affilliated with a respectable hospital or scientific organization) and I will re evaluate my opinion. However, every reputable study that I've read, and every medical professional I've spoken with, has told me that you're wrong. I merely request that you show me evidence to the contrary, which, so far, you have failed to do.

How many black belts you have doesn't matter to me with regards to this issue, just as my rank shouldn't matter to you, because rank has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is ephedra.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Cocaine, Marajuana, Heroin and acid are all natural too. At one time all 4 were legal. Yet they are now currently banned and illegal. The fact that ephedra/ephedrine/ Ma hung is currently legal and used in way too many diet aids is besided the point. Tobacco is also legal, yet only an utter moron would argue its health benifits.

Ma Hungs side effects are well published. Billed as a 'stimulant/metabolism booster" it also causes headaches, nausea, and heart problems. There are a growing number of deaths being blamed on it. I have seen studies in some of the 'entry-level' fitness magazines warning against its use. The herbalist I speak to about such things also recomends either not using it, or using it in very small amounts, and not for extended periods of time.

Simply put, do some research. I just did mine.

If you are outside the US, then the legal issues may be different.

From http://www.jameshoyer.com/problem_ephedra.html

Ephedrine is a powerful herbal stimulant used in diet pills, energy boosters and body building formulas. The Food and Drug Administration found evidence that the use of ephedrine sickened or killed more than 800 people since 1994. The FDA concluded "...the use of ephedrine-alkaloid dietary supplements is associated with a serious and significant health concern because of the nature of the adverse events and the size of the population at risk."

from http://www.injurync.com/ephedra.htm

One of the most popular over-the-counter medications containing Ephedra is Metabolifeâ. Metabolife International Inc., the manufacturer of Metabolifeâ, is currently under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department and could possibly face criminal charges for allegedly withholding important records of the number of deaths and serious injuries associated with certain products. On September 6, 2002, a confidential settlement was reached with Metabolife International, Inc. and a California man, who claimed his cardiac arrest and brain damage were a result of him using the Metabolife 356 product.

from http://www.ephedraattorney.com/faq.html

Like phenylpropanolamine, ephedrine acts on the appetite control center of the brain, the hypothalmus, suppressing the desire to eat. Like all CNS stimulants, ephedrine stimulates the heart and causes blood vessels to constrict, increasing blood pressure and heart rate.
Ephedrine-containing products (ma huang, Chinese ephedra, and Sida cordifolia) are marketed to improve athletic performance and enhance weight loss.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no good evidence that substances containing ephedrine enhance one's exercise performance. It is banned by the International Olympic Committee and National Collegiate Athletic Association.

and

How Serious Are The Health Hazards Associated With Ephedra (Ephedrine)?
Ephedra is evidently one of the most dangerous of the so-called herbal or natural dietary supplements. It is touted as an ancient Chinese herb (known there as ma huang), with the implication that it has stood the test of time.
Many people in this country are being seriously injured as a result of dietary supplements, and yet they are unaware that suppliers are virtually free to make health claims about substances for which there is no scientific proof indicating effectiveness, let alone the existence of side effects. Due to a law which the industry was able to get passed in 1994, the FDA has been left virtually impotent to regulate these products.

According to the FDA, since 1993 at least 50 people have died and 800 made ill by dietary supplements containing ephedrine (see FDA, 1996). The FDA recommends a maximum daily ephedrine dose of 24 milligrams, that supplements contain no more than 8 milligrams of ephedrine or related alkaloids per serving, and that ephedrine be used for no longer than one week.

Because of misuse and adverse reactions to products containing ephedrine, approximately 21 states have passed regulations stricter than federal regulations. These include requiring that ephedrine products be made available by prescription only; moving ephedrine products to schedules of controlled substances; and prohibiting weight loss, appetite control, or stimulant claims on the labels.

Due to the potential for harm, self-medication with ephedra-containing products is ill advised. Do not take ephedrine if you have high blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid problems, or if you are on antidepressant medications. Also do not use ephedrine if you are breast feeding as the drug is known to enter breast milk.

From http://www.ephedrine-news.com/

Ephedra Products Linked to Over One Hundred Deaths

There are three billion servings of ephedra consumed yearly, an extremely popular stimulant contained in diet pills and sports drinks. Due to its classification as a food, ephedra is exempt from FDA regulation despite adverse events with ephedra received since 1994, linking the supplement to chest pain, myocardial infarction, hepatitis, stroke, seizures, psychosis, and death. The FDA has now collected reports of over 100 deaths due to the use of ephedra-containing products, and consumer advocates and doctors are outraged that the supplement has not yet been banned. Public Citizen consumer group petitioned to have ephedra banned in September 2001, and the decision to instead review all scientific reports on ephedra's safety before ruling on the petition prompted the group to label the HHS and FDA as "cowards" for not taking a more deliberate stance.

The nation's largest selling ephedra-containing product, Metabolife, is now under criminal investigation to determine if Metabolife International and former Metabolife president and co-founder lied when telling the FDA they had not received any reports of adverse Metabolife health effects. The FDA has been trying to collect reports from Metabolife as far back as 1997 but said the company "refused and resisted us every step of the way". A pharmacologist hired by the FDA in 1995 to analyze the sudden increase of deaths and heart problems in teenagers whom had taken ephedra was surprised after he reported his findings to the FDA when the agency did not move quickly to restrict ephedra and largely attributes this to the FDA being "under pressure from the powerful ephedra industry".

(note, many links to more info in the original article)

from http://www.ephedrine-news.com/html/effects.html

Ephedrine (Metabolife) Side Effects
Derived from an evergreen plant in Central Asia, ephedra is used as a major ingredient in sport drinks and dietary supplements. Currently, Metabolife International's diet pill is under investigation. Taking Metabolife and other ephedra products heightens alertness by stimulating the central nervous system, but ephedra, including Metabolife, has been linked to deadly and serious side effects. The FDA had been unsuccessfully trying to obtain adverse event reports from the industry since at least 1997, but since the deregulation of herbal products, the figures had not been collected.

The FDA has been collecting and receiving reports of adverse events with ephedra since 1994, and in a September 1994 FDA Medical Bulletin, the agency reported the number was increasing. The reported reactions varied from mild side effects to very serious conditions including:

nervousness
dizziness
tremor
alternations in blood pressure or heart rate
headache
gastrointestinal distress
chest pain
myocardial infarction
hepatitis
stroke
seizures
pyschosis
death
Since 1994, the FDA has collected reports of over 100 deaths among ephedra users such as Metabolife. Metabolife is the number one maker of ephedra supplements in the U.S. A report from the Centers for Disease Control on August 16, 1996, reported that the Bureau of Food and Drug safety, Texas Department of Health, received around 500 reports of adverse events in persons that consumed dietary supplement products containing ephedrine. The adverse ephedrine report total included reports by individuals and as identified by the Bureau of Epidemiology in a review of records from the six Texas Poison Center Network centers. The severity of the ephedrine side effects ranged, but eight ephedrine users died and reports of stroke, myocardial infarction, chest pain, and seizures were reported. The reports included patients that followed the recommended dosage.

According to a December 21, 2000 New England Journal of Medicine article, researchers consider 25 mg to be the recommended therapeutic dose that is usually given with about 200 mg of caffeine. This one dose of Metabolife quickens the heart rate, opens up the bronchial airways allowing more oxygen to become available, and constricts the blood vessels resulting in an increased blood pressure. Some Metabolife users react more or strongly to ephedra compounds than others that may be why Metabolife side effects are experienced.

On October 11, 2001, Public Citizen consumer group made a statement before the National Academy of Sciences on the Framework for Evaluating the Safety of Dietary Supplements citing data collected from January 1993- February 2001 to demonstrate that ephedrine alkaloid dietary supplements have been associated with more deaths, myocardial infarctions, cardiac arrhythmias, hypertension, stroke, and seizure events than all other dietary supplements combined. The data according to the FDA analysis showed during this time frame there were:

3308 adverse events for all dietary supplements, 1398 of these (42%) for the ephedrine alkaloids
137 reports of death, 81 deaths (59%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
38 reports of myocardial infarction/heart attack, 32 reports (84%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
98 reports of cardiac arrhythmias, 62 (63%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
144 reports of hypertension, 91 (63%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
85 reports of stroke, 69 (81%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
121 reports of seizure, 70 (58%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids

For more information, click below:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ephedra+ephedrine+problems

 

[cassidy]

whatever I speak on experiace of myself and peers using it over the years.So their word is good but not people that use it wisely?! Whatever I'm done with this crap. Next thing I know I'll perform A perfect spinning hook or the like and be told I'm doing it wrong because your instructor or friend said different. LATER