Elbow Strike - One Arm versus Two

[FearlessFreep]

I've worked elbow strikes before, usually just a single arm. Tonight I was thinking about forms and in particular the elbow strikes in Taegeuk Oh-Jang.

One thing on my mind was that my priotr instructor taught me on the two elbow strikes to bring the fist into the opposite palm as you strike My current instructor teaches it to bring your opposite hand around to cup your fist first, and then strike. Not botthering about which is 'correct' I was wondering which would be a perferrerd way of doing an elbow strike whenen needed. Does one generate more power through better stability or grounding? Are there other issues?

 

[TigerWoman]

I've worked elbow strikes before, usually just a single arm. Tonight I was thinking about forms and in particular the elbow strikes in Taegeuk Oh-Jang.

One thing on my mind was that my priotr instructor taught me on the two elbow strikes to bring the fist into the opposite palm as you strike My current instructor teaches it to bring your opposite hand around to cup your fist first, and then strike. Not botthering about which is 'correct' I was wondering which would be a perferrerd way of doing an elbow strike whenen needed. Does one generate more power through better stability or grounding? Are there other issues?

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step. I think it is to give support to the arm. We also do a double elbow strike in a self-defense technique-backwards with no fist support as one fist is already on the way to the groin. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step

The first way is a one step motion also, you are swinging the elbow around and meeting the hand that is already up for the knife hand block I deallym your fist should meet your palm at the same instant your elbow strikes the target. Actualy, the way I do it now I think is slower because since you are in a knife hand block, you have to bring that hand back to cup the first at your side and then swing into the strike.

I hope my word illustrations are adequate

I was wondering if there was a mechanical advantage to either motion. Swinging while cupping the fist versus swingif handed and bracing with the palm as you make conact

We also do a double elbow strike in a self-defense technique-backwards with no fist support as one fist is already on the way to the groin

Yes, I also learned a single handed vertical elbow straight into the solar-plexus (as the other hand is blocking and trapping in incoming hook or swinging punch)

 

[tshadowchaser]

speaking from a non TDK approach
I always want one hand free to block, grab, strike.
Cupping the hands puts both hands in a posistion where they can not do anything else at the moment
As for power I get more out of the one arm

 

[FearlessFreep]

well that's another related discussion, do you drill the elbow strike for one or two arms or both, and again what s the mechanical advantage?

Part of this is that I'm seeing more and more motions in forms I do that speak to a wider array of techniques encompassing the total art then I was previously aware of, and I'm looking at ways to take those motions out of the forms and see them as fighting techniques and explore how to use them effectively.

Also, do you try to aim the elbow to 'hit' or to 'swipe'. Sometimes on my bag it's a solid 'whap', sometimes I rack the end of my elbow across the target in more of a raking/cutting motion. The difference is quite intentional on my part but I was curious if there were recommendations on how to approach using that strike.

Thanks

 

[Marginal]

With something like a front strike, where your elbow's ending up straight in front of you, with your forearm parallel to your shoulders there's no real mechanical advantage is bringing your other arm into the motion. You don't even need windup to deliver a solid strike in that case.

 

[Zepp]

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.

Also, do you try to aim the elbow to 'hit' or to 'swipe'. Sometimes on my bag it's a solid 'whap', sometimes I rack the end of my elbow across the target in more of a raking/cutting motion. The difference is quite intentional on my part but I was curious if there were recommendations on how to approach using that strike.

I usually think of elbow strikes being used to 'hit," as in land a solid blow and break a bone, or stun my opponent. The swiping/slashing motion can be used to open up a cut on an opponents face, as seen in some MMA and Muay Thai matches. (There's a reason elbows strikes aren't usually allowed in tournaments.)

 

[FearlessFreep]

With something like a front strike, where your elbow's ending up straight in front of you, with your forearm parallel to your shoulders there's no real mechanical advantage is bringing your other arm into the motion

OK, I think I see that. That mirrors the other post fomr ts saying he doesn't need to brace to add power

How about on...don't know what to call it, maybe a 'reverse elbow', when your hitting with the back of the elbow, on the upper arm side? I've practiced this both sometimes when because of an early technique I find myself a little turned away from the target and as part of a self-defense move my instructor has us work on. Assuming you are relatively perpendicular in stance to your target, you can strike with the back of the elbow of the arm closest to the target, or you can spin your back to the target and strike with the back of the elbow of the arm that was further away from the target. That's just a description of the direction of the strike. Anyway, in that reverse elbow, if you are driving the elbow into he target, one thing I see is to cup the fist of the striking arm in the palm of the opposite arm and use the opposite arm to drive the striking arm into the target. Is this sensible? I mean, can you really get more drive that way? or by bracing the arm along he direction of impact are you bracing the striking weapon so you get more solidness and therefore more energy into the target instead of back into your own arm/shoulder

I was trying this out this morning and one alternative I worked on for the 'backward elbow' was to not brace the striking arm with the other arm but instead spin fast and slash with the elbow and follow up with a hook punch or elbow from the other arm as well

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.

Interesting. I had no thought of that. Could you describe such an application? (As I mentioned, I'm seeing in forms a sort of stylized represntation of the movements of the art and attempting to find those movements and look at them as effective fighting movements, but there is a lot *in* those movements that I don't see so it helps to have others describe the movements they understand from some of the abstractions presented in the forms)


I usually think of elbow strikes being used to 'hit," as in land a solid blow and break a bone, or stun my opponent. The swiping/slashing motion can be used to open up a cut on an opponents face, as seen in some MMA and Muay Thai matches.

Or in other words, both work For different uses

Thanks

 

[Shu2jack]

Interesting, I was never taught the two armed elbow strike like I think you guys are describing it. Unless I am reading you descriptions wrong

When executing our elbow strikes to the front, the lead hand grabs the invisible head in front of us and the rear hand does the elbow strike. As the strike is executed, the grabbing hand (which is open the entire time) pulls back as the elbow moves forward so the palm of the grabbing hand "smacks" the elbow.

In our forms, the idea is you are grabbing onto the guy and pulling them towards you as you move forward to execute the elbow strike. I prefer to use the same thing when board breaking, minus grabbing the board or the holders.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In the move in the form I'm thinking of, here is the final position

Note that the fist of the striking arm is braced in the palm of the other hand. My original question was at what point do you get the fist into the palm, at the moment of impact or before the swing, or rather, my real question is, does it matter for practical usage? (or I guess now I'm wondering if it shuold be done at all)

Later in the same form is this move...

which comes after a punch and is supposed to be grabbing the head and pulling it into the elbow.

And thanks to everyone's input

 

[allpet]

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.

Exactly! The "hidden" technique is an elbow joint lock. :ultracool

I would never grab my own hand if it was for real. That would be like fighting with one hand in my pocket.

 

[TigerWoman]

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step

The first way is a one step motion also, you are swinging the elbow around and meeting the hand that is already up for the knife hand block

The hand-palm position simulates bringing the head into the elbow strike. TW

 

[jfarnsworth]

If I had to do one or the other it would be the one in the second picture.

If I had my own preference it would be neither of them.

 

[Gemini]

Regarding the first elbow strike (palkup dollyo chigi) though, I've always preferred to grab my fist first and then swing my elbow while stepping in. Reason being, if you swing your elbow and grab at the same time, you many miss from time to time, loosing the support. I would also prefer to hit square as opposed to "swipe" because again, with the limited range of the strike, it's much easier to miss your target and leave your ribs prone, because your whole body is in motion. Just my own preference.

As far as which is correct, in poomses, correctness is based on the end result, not so much the method of getting there. Throughout the poomses, you'll see many examples of this and they're all "correct" as long as the ending result is correct. When you get to Pal-jang, you'll use the same strike with no arm support, followed by a back fist. You'll feel the difference in the power of the strikes and the methods used to make them.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I would also prefer to hit square as opposed to "swipe" because again, with the limited range of the strike, it's much easier to miss your target and leave your ribs prone, because your whole body is in motion. Just my own preference.

That's a very good mechanical observation I had not thought of. Thanks


As far as which is correct, in poomses, correctness is based on the end result, not so much the method of getting there.

Agreed, I didn't want to get into which one was 'correct' from an artistic standpoint, more wondering if either was more effective if lifted from the form and applied to an opponent.

You'll feel the difference in the power of the strikes and the methods used to make them.

Is this a difference in the power of using an arm support versus none based on what the support gives you? Or is it something in the shoulder twist? Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?

 

[Zepp]

Is this a difference in the power of using an arm support versus none based on what the support gives you? Or is it something in the shoulder twist? Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?

I don't believe there's a difference in power. The difference is in how your arm feels if your elbow hits a not-so-soft part of your opponents body. Personally I throw elbow strikes without the supporting arm so that I have one arm still protecting my head. And most of the power in this strike should come from the hip rather than the shoulder.

 

[Gemini]

Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?

Actually, I was going to reply to that until I read your last sentence. And as usual, you're very observant. Experience is the best teacher and the answer to this is no exception. Showing curiosity and patience in the same post gives me the impression you're the type of student most instructors love to have.

 

[Miles]

Probably not a very satisfying answer, but at the Kukkiwon, GM Lee said that some of the techniques in the poomsae (and we were working on TG#5 at the time) may not be realistic, but are done for artistic purposes. The one example I can specifically recall him discussing is the side kick with simultaneous backfist in TG#5-if you are sidekicking someone, you likely are not able to hit them with a backfist at the same time (of course, you could if you kick them low enough, but the poomsae calls for a middle level kick).

That said, GM Lee demonstrated the first elbow strike as the fist of the elbowing arm hitting the knifehand block's palm at the point of impact. The target elbow strike after the simultaneous sidekick/backfist ends with fist of the striking elbow slightly below the elbow of the target palm arm.

Miles

 

[allpet]

The one example I can specifically recall him discussing is the side kick with simultaneous backfist in TG#5-if you are sidekicking someone, you likely are not able to hit them with a backfist at the same time (of course, you could if you kick them low enough, but the poomsae calls for a middle level kick).

You don't do the techniques at the same time when it's for real.

The sidekick is to the inside of the knee.

After the knee has buckled you perform the backfist (or hammerfist) to an appropriate target on the head like the temple or GB 20.

 

[ajs1976]

Taeguk Oh Jang is the form I am working on now and as I practicing in class last night, I was thinking about this discussion.

I don't believe there's a difference in power. The difference is in how your arm feels if your elbow hits a not-so-soft part of your opponents body. Personally I throw elbow strikes without the supporting arm so that I have one arm still protecting my head. And most of the power in this strike should come from the hip rather than the shoulder.

I don't think that elbow strike makes since unless you look at it in context. The move right before it is a knife hand block with the left hand, so the left hand is out in a guard position already. The right elbow is brought around and right before the impact, the hands connect and the left arms pulls on the right.

I don't think pulling with the left arm adds strengh to the elbow strike directly, but stabilizes the shoulder making the strike more rigid.

As far as hitting a hard head with the elbow, I have been taught to rotate my forarm when hitting a hard target, so the muscle hits the target and not the bone.