Effectiveness

[cdhall]

Hello everyone,

I don't study Aikido but I have visited a dojo where a friend of mine trains. His instructor says he has "interceded" in "situations" as a "befuddled old man" and foiled several agressions.

I've also seen some of the classes and these guys can take pretty much anything coming at them (punch, body, weapon) and put it somewhere else without being touched.

I once considered training in Aikido and on one of my Kenpo tests, I developed a technique with no block or strike as a tribute to Aikido. I don't know how much it had in common with Aikido but I trapped a punch and drop the guy to the floor with an armbar. I never "hit" him, but he was totally at my mercy at the end.

I don't understand how Bushido can say that he does not believe the Aikidoka understand real agression. I think he betrays a lack of experience.

In my investigation I have also found that a Kenpo buddy of mine concluded that the Aikido guys he looked at really stunk until they had about 5 years of training at which point they were very effective. This being the case, I really don't see how someone can dismiss Aikido when they have less than 2-3 years of experience. There seems to be a high learning curve. I've been to demos where multiple people are tossed like rag dolls and they are charging their instructor sometimes even while they are armed.

I think Bushido is being fantastically disrespectful. I think he needs to confront an Instructor to see if his opinions truly hold water.

By the way, Steven Segal studies a form of Aikido right? Traditional Aikido does not have his strikes, correct? The guy I went to go see would do a demo and stop to say stuff like "If we wanted to hit the guy, you could do so here...."

I know students in many arts that don't look all that deadly after 1-3 years of training but this does not mean that the system they study is flawed to uselessness.
:asian:

 

[kimura]

There are many arguments wether or not Aikido is effective in real life situations. I understand both the arguments against and for effectiveness. The important thing to be aware of is that Aikido as a martial art has been made for both developing an effective selfdefence and for developing a certain attitude towards life. In the eyes of a martial artist who has not practiced aikido or only for a few years, the two things contradict eachother a bit, as effectiveness often is seen as 'can I rip the attackers arm or legs of and mail it to the north and south pole'? In Aikido we have to defend ourselves without becoming the violent part. We have to wait for an energy giving by the opponent, so he is always deciding want he want us to do with him. If I injure an opponent, it is not his fault because he attacked me, but it is my fault because I could not control myself. There is a huge difference in the attitude of Aikido and other martial arts in that sense. I believe, as it was mentioned previously, that it is not possible to reach that level of understanding Aikido both physically and mentally only with a few years of practice... When I say a few years, I believe more than 6 -7 years.

Even after practicing for that long many Aikido people still cannot use Aikido as self defence. In many dojos Aikido is taught without considering real life movements. They "give" themselves as attackers with no mind, meaning that as an attacker they do not protect themselves as a person would do in real life (if he is clever enough). This has nothing to do with the actual Aikido styles, but simply the level of the teachers. Many teachers either do not understand this part of Aikido, or their level is so low that they do not know how to defend themselves. In that case they often turn to teach a kind of spiritual Aikido, which is only half of the intention of Aikido.

To end this long speech, I would like to stress that Aikido is both about developing an effective self defence system and also a mental attitude, where the "defender" shows a better way by not hurting the person attacking. Keeping such a calm mind in an aggressive situation require many years of practice.

It is very understandable that someone comments negatively after a few years of practice also they might have had inexperienced or bad teachers. However, my advice is practice more and practice with different teachers in different styles if you really want to understand Aikido !!:asian:

 

[old_sempai]

:asian:

If while defending myself the attacker gets injured, I have no feelings of regret since it was their own undoing. When Aikido [my style is Nihon Goshin] is executed with an attitude of Mushin Muso [mind of no mind] then any resultant injury is an outcome of their own dynamic energy being turned completely upon themselves. Why should I feel pity for someone who minutes earlier wanted to attack, injure or even end my life. To paraphrase General Scwartzkopf [sp?] "Forgiveness is what God does, my job is to defend myself and if the result of that finds the individual meeting him - who am I to say NO."

The Universe is not a peaceable warm fuzzy place, it is filled with many that prey upon others. And I have chosen not to be victim or prey, nor do I wish to perpetuate violence. However, to paraphrase once more, this time the words of Obata Toshoshiro, Soke - Shinkendo: "The purpose of self-defense is to be able to confront aggression, surrround it, and contain it within itself."

:asian: :asian:

 

[Bushido]

Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?

By the way, I WAS VERY respectful of aikido and of anyone ideas on the subject. Just because I dont agree means I'm disrespectful.

I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world. Aikido vs grab is VERY good, but vs strikes it is not very effective. Maybe if a friend i drunk and wants to punch you, maybe it would be effective then. Vs strikes it can work, but it is VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult. Strikes in aikido gives a false sense of effectiveness and security. One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see.

Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.

I do not bash on aikido, I do think it is a wonderful art, but has some lack of effectiveness.

I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...

Peace

-Bushido

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by old_sempai

:asian:

If while defending myself the attacker gets injured, I have no feelings of regret since it was their own undoing. When Aikido [my style is Nihon Goshin] is executed with an attitude of Mushin Muso [mind of no mind] then any resultant injury is an outcome of their own dynamic energy being turned completely upon themselves. Why should I feel pity for someone who minutes earlier wanted to attack, injure or even end my life. To paraphrase General Scwartzkopf [sp?] "Forgiveness is what God does, my job is to defend myself and if the result of that finds the individual meeting him - who am I to say NO."

The Universe is not a peaceable warm fuzzy place, it is filled with many that prey upon others. And I have chosen not to be victim or prey, nor do I wish to perpetuate violence. However, to paraphrase once more, this time the words of Obata Toshoshiro, Soke - Shinkendo: "The purpose of self-defense is to be able to confront aggression, surrround it, and contain it within itself."

:asian: :asian:

I believe there is good in all people also the ones that want to hurt you, but they probably do not know themselves. I do not say it is always possible to defend oneself without injuring anyone, but it has to be the goal. Why would you go to the same extremes as an agressor? It is not ok to hurt someone just because they want to hurt you. What should be done is controlling the situation instead. It has never been the idea of Aikido to turn the force against an agressor, but instead using this force or energy to show wthe agressor that his way is a wrong way.

Some years ago I got attacked one night when I worked on a gasstation as a student helper. I was attacked by a person with a bottle trying to hit me on the side of my head. I made a simple kokyu nage and after that an arm lock. He could not move but kept yelling that he was going to kill me when he got up. I tightened the lock and told him that he is going to decide if he want it to hurt or not. After a while he came to his senses I released him, and he apologized for his behavior. I am pretty sure that if I had done to him what he wanted to do to me, I would probably have been in jail, or he would have found some friends to wop my hiny...

Martial arts is not 'an eye for an eye'!!

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Bushido

Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?

By the way, I WAS VERY respectful of aikido and of anyone ideas on the subject. Just because I dont agree means I'm disrespectful.

I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world. Aikido vs grab is VERY good, but vs strikes it is not very effective. Maybe if a friend i drunk and wants to punch you, maybe it would be effective then. Vs strikes it can work, but it is VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult. Strikes in aikido gives a false sense of effectiveness and security. One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see.

Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.

I do not bash on aikido, I do think it is a wonderful art, but has some lack of effectiveness.

I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...

Peace

-Bushido

Great respect for your years in martial arts !!!:asian:

However, as I have written somewhere I used to practice with an Aikido teacher in Japan who used to be a pro boxer. I asked him the same question, that how could Aikido be effective against such arts as boxing. He explained to me that it is very easy, as in Aikido if you meet someone who is fast with their punches, you should go for the body instead. He believed that Aikido is one of the most effective martial arts he had ever seen (his opinion) also with his experience in proboxing.

I do not know what Aikido you have practiced, but the grabbing in Aikido is beginners practice to learn to understand flow and energy. We do not believe that people actually attacks in that way. When an Aikidoka understands the energy and movements of the body, a whole series of attacks can be worked with in the same manner. I have also written before that wether or not the Aikido one observes is effective or not, is up to the level of the person performing. When I talk about level I do not mean xxDangrade, but a level of understanding how Aikido can be used for any attack. Have you ever seen Nishio Shojis style of Aikido ? It is build as a selfdefence against martial arts such as Karate, as Nishio sensei is a 6 dan in karate as well as 8 in Aikido. 5 Judo and 7 Iaido. His idea of understanding attacks is to understand both the energy in the actual attack, but also the small openings, where a defender can enter with the use of perfect distance and perfect timing.

I am not trying to put your experience down. However, I believe you have not seen a good performer yet. In Nishio senseis dojo in Japan I have practised with several karate people who had your view of the effectiveness of Aikido, but when they met Nishio sensei they changed their mind. I practised there myself for 2½ years and during that period Nishio sensei gave me one chance to attack with what I had in me (I used to practice Tae Kwon Do and Judo). He was 68 years old at that time, and I must say I went down from the first punch...

Anyways... As in all martial arts there are amazing blackbelts that have practiced for years and there are reaally bad blackbelts that have practised for years and years... Therefore it is impossible to say which style is most effective or not. It all depends on the eyes that are looking !!!

 

[Jas]

Bushido,

I don't find you to be disrespectful, I do find you to be very close minded about the many differant styles of Aikido. I think we will all agree that through time man has gotten better, we live longer we are smarter etc.... we did this by studying the downfalls with ourselves and worked to make them better. This is what Nihon Goshin Aikido is all about, my Sensei says Nihon Goshin is a more combative style of Aikido. Centuries ago Aikido was peaceful now with this new style it has adapted to the world we live in today. I live in Buffalo, N.y. and invite you to come to my Dojo to watch a class, I think you will see that we use full speed strikes in trainning straight punhes, hooks, upper cuts, back hands and I have been struck before in class theres nothing weak about the strikes. If you are ever gonna be in my area please e-mail me.

with respect to peoples opinions

 

[Diablo]

Originally posted by Bushido

Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?

I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world.

One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see.

Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.

I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...

Peace

-Bushido

You are very naive in saying that you believe people do not understand or realize what a real confrontation is. You mentioned you practiced kyokushinkai karate,brazilian jiujitsu, thai-boxing, aikido, and taichi. If I try to use your'e reasoning for the ineffectiveness of aikido (being that you have not seen an aikidoka that can defend himself against a boxer's punch), then if I use that same reasoning, you have wasted your time learning karate, thai-boxing, and taichi also. I'd assume they have the Ultimate Fighting Championship there in Canada. If you ever study them, the karateka and thai-boxer almost always loses against the judoka or bjj. Taichi? You will NEVER see a fighter whose sole style is taichi. If you have not seen a UFC, maybe you have seen a Pride fight. Either way, it is usually a mixed martial artist who wins.
Incidently, without stating it here in this forum, you yourself believe that none of the arts you practiced in was an art that is a defense against all real-world confrontations either. If it was, why would you move onto another art to learn. You could not possibly become a master in these other arts in 4 or 5 years.
And finally, maybe you need to find another Aikido dojo because it is possible that your fellow aikidoka have become to complaisant. I too have trained with ukes that do not put any effort into their attacks, and just go with the flow. But, I also have some ukes that attack full heartedly and I HAVE to apply a particular technique correctly or they do not move.

It's all about connection.
Diablo

 

[Bushido]

You compare ring fight to streetfight, you dont seems to fully understand my statements.

-Bushido

 

[Bushido]

Thank you all for responding to my tread and sharing your ideas and opinion. I respect all your point of view, even if I do not always agree. I keep my position on the fact that strikes in most (not all. if it is not like that in your school, good) aikido school are unrealistic (am I the only one to see that?). Anyway.

This discussion could go on forever, so that was my last post in this tread.

Thank you again.

I wish I could be uke : )

-Bushido

 

[bah]

There is something that many of you need to know. Most of the top level people in aikido NEVER trained for any length of time with Morihei Ueshiba. There are but a very few that have spent very serious time training with the founder. The two that stand out are Gozo Shioda and Morihiro Saito. Yoshinkan and Iwama style aikido are very martial and utilize ways to deal with REAL kicks and punches.

Ueshiba spent MANY years studying and teaching Daito-ryu Jujutsu and he taught very well how to deal with kicks and strikes and how to utilize them as well.

 

[kimura]

Originally posted by Bushido


I wish I could be uke : )

-Bushido

You are more than welcome to be my Uke. I would also really like to see for myself what a real punch is, so I can understand it and develop my Aikido so I can defend myself against it... Just kidding...

I know we cannot agree on this, but I still feel it is narrowminded to jugde something without really studying it...

I feel you are generalizing on something which changes from individual to individual. I am sure your martial art is different from a lot of the people in your dojo too...

If we generalize like this the world would simply come to an end. Then blonds are really, Asians are really smarter and Karate is only done by people with long neckhair and whose favorite tv show is Texas Ranger !!

 

[Mao]

I haven't been to this particular forum for awhile. What a conversation going on here! The head of our org., Mitsugi Saotome spent 14 or so years as an uchi deshi for the founder. That's a live in student for those who don't know. He and Hiroshi Ikeda are the two top guys in the ASU. There's nothing weak or useless or ineffective in "their" aikido. AS has been said, it's how you train. As has also been said, "maybe YOUR aikido doesn't work". It is one of those styles that takes a longer time to get very adept at. More than a few years anyway. It's been 12 for me and I still learn more all the time. Gotta love this stuff!

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Bushido



I wish I could be uke : )

-Bushido

When you find out what uke is, you'll find out that you've been uke your whole life. If you've been a good or bad uke, that's up to you!


/Yari