Ebay Fake Certificates

Xue Sheng

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If you dig a little deeper you can find Dan certificates for almost any discipline you can name..It's not right and I don't know if anything can be done..

OOO OOO can I get a Dan Rank Certificate for Zhaobao Taijiquan or better yet Kamiya Kasshin Ryu, Kaio-ken and Anbo-Jitsu
 

Drac

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OOO OOO can I get a Dan Rank Certificate for Zhaobao Taijiquan or better yet Kamiya Kasshin Ryu, Kaio-ken and Anbo-Jitsu

Go and look, ya never know..Ya might even find one for tree bashing...
 

MA-Caver

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Letters en-massed to Ebay's corporate headquarters can help remove unwanted, unethical sales of various items. Cavers have bombarded Ebay's HQ's with e-mails and letters protesting the sale of cave formations/speleothems on their site... regardless of where they came from. Thus each time a new speleothem is up for sale/auction the HQ is bombarded until the sale is removed.

Martial Artists working in tandem can do the same. The letters must express a valid reason as to why that particular item should be removed. If they get enough they'll ban the item.
Getting students/instructors from all arts and legitimate schools to do the same might have a positive effect in stopping these bogus certificates from appearing.
Sitting around complaining about it just-won't-do-it.

Just a suggestion. :asian:
 

Bill Mattocks

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Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?

There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.

Or am I missing something?
 

MA-Caver

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Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?

There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.

Or am I missing something?
Probably what you're missing is that someone with a certificate (or two... even three) can open up a school and pretend to be teaching the art and make lots of money before somebody figures out he's so full of it that his eyes are brown, and that can be years later. They could have SOME real training up to say a green or brown belt level and be either a drop-out or kicked out for whatever reason and decide they've learned enough to pass for an instructor.
It gives a bad reputation to legitimate arts and instructors/BB's who are trying to run a legitimate school. Which is why McDojos are largely frowned upon.
 

terryl965

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We already have those out here in the real world,this is the land of the gullible people andso be it. If someone is stupid enough to stay with someone who knows nothing about SD because of some damm certificate let that school have them. I do not need these types of people in the true world of MA.
 

Drac

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Bill Mattocks

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Probably what you're missing is that someone with a certificate (or two... even three) can open up a school and pretend to be teaching the art and make lots of money before somebody figures out he's so full of it that his eyes are brown, and that can be years later. They could have SOME real training up to say a green or brown belt level and be either a drop-out or kicked out for whatever reason and decide they've learned enough to pass for an instructor.
It gives a bad reputation to legitimate arts and instructors/BB's who are trying to run a legitimate school. Which is why McDojos are largely frowned upon.

I can understand that, but the thought occurs to me that a person so motivated could make their own certificate and fake lineage on their own if they so wished. As well, one can buy all kinds of 'home training' programs, and who knows if any of them provide any kind of acceptable training?

I don't think Michigan (for example) requires professional licensing to open a dojo or training center for martial arts. Many other professions do require such licensing.

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/verify.htm

Perhaps it might be better and more productive to center efforts to stamp out 'McDojos' at the supply end?

After all, if some 30-year-old otaku fanboy living in his parent's basement wants to have a certificate saying he has earned a Platinum Belt in Gag Puk Ryu, there is no real harm done unless, as you say, he tries to teach his 'skill' to others and either ends up hurting someone or at the very least, defrauding them.

Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers? Just a thought.
 

Xue Sheng

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Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?

There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.

Or am I missing something?

Well I myself have a Rolecks and I am pretty offended by those over-priced Rolex knockoffs :D
 

Carol

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Hey man, once someone starts selling certs for my art, Rhee Bok Do, there's gonna be hell to pay! :flammad:
 

Bill Mattocks

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that's the essential problem. you can't regulate it.

Pardon my ignorance, but why not?

I'm not talking about regulating fake certificates, but regulating MA training centers.

The state of Michigan requires that boxing and MMA bouts be certified and meet state regulatory standards. Some states regulate tattoo parlours and barbershops. Why can't MA training be regulated? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't know why that would not work.
 

Sandstorm

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I don't think Michigan (for example) requires professional licensing to open a dojo or training center for martial arts. Many other professions do require such licensing.

Really? Wow! Here in the UK you have to show proof of licence and insurance and rank certificates. I've had to for all the venues I've ever used for teaching/training/displays etc.

I am dead against the sale of 'instructor' certificates in this manner. If someone wants to be a black belt in Fuk Mi Doe then please, be my guest. If you can't be bothered to put in the work then that's in your concience. The REAL problem comes with the use of fake/bought certificates for teaching. This is where it gets messy for the uninformed students later on.
I started a similar thread here....

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72715

Hard to stamp out, but it's possible to make people aware.
 

redantstyle

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eh, these boards are debate by nature. little point otherwise.

in terms of regulation, stop to consider all the different arts that are practiced. what would be the common qualifiers for them all.

no offense, but you seem to have little experience in martial arts history, lineages, and the multitude of claims that are laid by a myriad of individuals.

here's the rub...one man makes a style famous, more or less. after he passes on, the style fractures into multiple chapters, all which declare independance.

nobody is going to listen to anybody else, even in a given 'style'.

regards,

JM Barr
Liu Seong Gung Fu*


*this is just one example of what i am talking about.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Really? Wow! Here in the UK you have to show proof of licence and insurance and rank certificates. I've had to for all the venues I've ever used for teaching/training/displays etc.

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-35299_35414_35453---,00.html

If you go to this web page, you can see we're way behind you here in Michigan. We just recently decided to permit MMA bouts in addition to Boxing. Wrestling isn't even licensed.

You can see on the left side of the page the type of professions that require licensing or certification. A 'vehicle protection product warrantor' is required to be licensed - whatever the heck that is. But not a teacher in MA.

So anyone could open up a dojo here - they might have to get a sales permit or something, and insurance would certainly be a good idea, but as far as their ability to train, no requirements at all.

It seems to me that the fake certificate is just the last thing in a long line of deception that would have to take place for such a thing to happen, but perhaps it could be stopped by effective licensing by the state.
 
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