Early Kwans JiDo kwan First

terryl965

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Here is an piece written by Dr. Len Losik and was hoping to start a converstation about this as well as rest of the kwan at a later time.
Here is the article lets talk.

Once taught to Korean aristocracy for its spiritual and physical application, Ji Do Kwan developed into its current style after World War II. Although it joined with other Kwans to become Tae Kwon Do, its followers still retain strong characteristics of the Art and acclaim it as "The Way of Wisdom."
Over 45 years ago, the Ji do Kwan rose from post-World War II Korea. Members of the Ji Do Kwan supported both the creation of Tae Soo Do in 1955 and Tae Kwon Do at approximately the same time. Several well-known kwan founders trained at the early Ji Do Kwan including Hwang Kee and Won Kuk Lee. The original Ji Do Kwan was different from the other kwans. The Ji Do Kwan was used as a training hall for other arts such as Yudo and Kum Do.
In 1931, Kyung Suk Lee taught Judo in Seoul, South Korea. After World War II ended, Kyung Suk Lee asked Sang Sup Chun to Teach Kong Soo Do at the same location. Sang Sup Chun taught Dong Soo Do and then brought Byung In Lee to teach Kwon Bup, Byung In Lee then taught Yun Moo Kwan Bup Bu. Byung In Lee left the Chosan Yun Moo Kwan and taught Kwan Pub Bu at the Seoul YMCA. When Byung In Lee left the Yun Moo Kwan. Sang Sup Chun took over and continued teaching Kwon Bup until the end of the Korean War 1953.


I hope we can keep this civil.

More here
 

Muwubu16858

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First, I'd like to add that the Jidokwan split as well in the 60's, like that of the Moo Duk Kwan. Lee Chong Woo took over in respect to Tae Kwon Do Ji Do Kwan, and Yoon Kwai Byung(as spelt on his Org's certificate) stayed with Hwang Kee for a while until he left due to the fact that technically, he outranked Hwang Kee, but Hwang would never allow anyone else to head the Organization. So Yoon Kwai Byung formed the Korean Karate-do Association, and kept the Ji Do Kwan name. Yoon Kwai Byung passed away in 2003 according to my teacher, whom is GM Yoon's nephew. As of this time, the Korean Karate-do Association has changed from being called Ji Do Kwan(&#26234;&#36947;&#39208;) to Tae Geuk Kwan(&#22826;&#26997;&#39208;) and I will post his successors name by tomarrow afternoon, as i don't have my notes with me.
 

Miles

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For an accurate description of the history of this kwan, I suggest you go to the website of one of the foremost adherents in the US, Master Al Cole. His website is www.taekwondojidokwan.com. Master Cole is of the Jidokwan lineage and is a former Ohio TKD Assoc President. He hosted Dr. Jin Bang Yang for a seminar on teaching sparring which I attended several years ago. MSUTKD and I saw Master Cole last year in Cleveland at the USAT Sr. Nationals.


Miles
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Miles why do you believe there is more than five story about each and every Kwon, why can we not have what is really the truth. I agree that master Cole is a great man and knows his history. I would like to have a converstation about the Ji do Kwon in depth and for real. can you give some insight to what you have been told personally?
Thank as always
Terry Stoker
 

rmclain

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Miles why do you believe there is more than five story about each and every Kwon, why can we not have what is really the truth. I agree that master Cole is a great man and knows his history. I would like to have a converstation about the Ji do Kwon in depth and for real. can you give some insight to what you have been told personally?
Thank as always
Terry Stoker

You're assuming that someone at this board knows something accurate about Jido-Kwan history. Even high-ranking people in Jido-Kwan nowadays don't know alot of things about their own kwan lineage.

I've never met Master Cole, but I know he asks questions and consults with Grandmaster Kim Soo about the old kwan history.

R. McLain
 

Dave Leverich

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Wow! If that's accurate, it's kind of a ground shaking revelation. A central gym, a kind of meeting place, similar to what the KKW turned into some 40 years later (although not just TKD but the other names).

I wonder if there is anyone alive who could corroborate the finding?

Ps. DOes anyone have more information on the MDK split (TSD/TKD)? My grand instructors (both of them) have certs with TungSuDo Mudukkwan Taekwondo on them (or reversed, I forget, but both TKD/TSD, and definitely MDK).
 

JWLuiza

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Wow! If that's accurate, it's kind of a ground shaking revelation. A central gym, a kind of meeting place, similar to what the KKW turned into some 40 years later (although not just TKD but the other names).

I wonder if there is anyone alive who could corroborate the finding?

Ps. DOes anyone have more information on the MDK split (TSD/TKD)? My grand instructors (both of them) have certs with TungSuDo Mudukkwan Taekwondo on them (or reversed, I forget, but both TKD/TSD, and definitely MDK).

There is a short time frame where Hwang Kee was part of the TKD movement. Is it possible that your instructors acheived chodan in that time frame?
 

Dave Leverich

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1969-71 approximately, I'd have to see the certificates to be certain. I know that the first ones were in Subakdo (1st/2nd) then the subsequent ones TSD MDK TKD. I know the certificates were signed by GM Hwang Kee, but I'd have to get a closer look to.

GM Pierce (HTF KJN) also has ones from the same time period, but he was TSD until the early 70's when him and my two grandfather instructors were already TKD in ROC (the three of them met there, doing demo's etc, made plans and then hit stateside in 73-4ish, all then doing TKD).

I"ll see what I can dig up ;)
 
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terryl965

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You're assuming that someone at this board knows something accurate about Jido-Kwan history. Even high-ranking people in Jido-Kwan nowadays don't know alot of things about their own kwan lineage.

I've never met Master Cole, but I know he asks questions and consults with Grandmaster Kim Soo about the old kwan history.

R. McLain


I'm not assuming anything, I thought it would be great to talk about the early kwon and get feedback from others that might have some input.

I know GM Park is Ji Do Kwon and so is Master Bell and they believe this to be almost true. So I was trying to get more accurate info. The book I'm writing is about all the early kwons, but the trouble I'm having is there are too many stories about what is true. Not saying anyone of the people I talk to are lieing just they have different views of the facts.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Wow! If that's accurate, it's kind of a ground shaking revelation. A central gym, a kind of meeting place, similar to what the KKW turned into some 40 years later (although not just TKD but the other names).

I wonder if there is anyone alive who could corroborate the finding?

Ps. DOes anyone have more information on the MDK split (TSD/TKD)? My grand instructors (both of them) have certs with TungSuDo Mudukkwan Taekwondo on them (or reversed, I forget, but both TKD/TSD, and definitely MDK).


Like you said if it is true, to many different views to ever know for sure.
 

rmclain

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I'm not assuming anything, I thought it would be great to talk about the early kwon and get feedback from others that might have some input.

I know GM Park is Ji Do Kwon and so is Master Bell and they believe this to be almost true. So I was trying to get more accurate info. The book I'm writing is about all the early kwons, but the trouble I'm having is there are too many stories about what is true. Not saying anyone of the people I talk to are lieing just they have different views of the facts.

The most senior person originally from the Jido-Kwan in the DFW area is Grandmaster Park Won-chik. He started training around 1954, but he went with the TKD movements many years ago and doesn't teach any old Jido-Kwan requirements or things from Master Yoon Kwe-byung - just Tae Guek and Palgue forms, olympic sparring, etc. Grandmaster Park is part of a association that celebrates the old Jido-Kwan, but I think it is mostly an honorary association.

Good luck with the book. Don't use Len Losik as a resource if you want accurate information.

R. McLain
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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The most senior person originally from the Jido-Kwan in the DFW area is Grandmaster Park Won-chik. He started training around 1954, but he went with the TKD movements many years ago and doesn't teach any old Jido-Kwan requirements or things from Master Yoon Kwe-byung - just Tae Guek and Palgue forms, olympic sparring, etc. Grandmaster Park is part of a association that celebrates the old Jido-Kwan, but I think it is mostly an honorary association.

Good luck with the book. Don't use Len Losik as a resource if you want accurate information.

R. McLain


I'm only looking into all views and I have talked to Won Chik Park and will see him this weekend at the tournament he host every year. I have been able to get his views but like he says he is Ji Do kwon and Master Ronald Bell is also and I've talked to him as well. Any info. you like to send for me to look over please Pm or post.

Thank you
Terry
 

Mithios

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The first official kwan was the Chung Do Kwan founded by Won Kuk Lee in 1944, and the style was Tang Soo Do. Most people do not know that Won Kuk Lee was the first to call his style Tang Soo Do, as Chung Do Kwan was one of the first Kwan's to change to the name Tae Kwon-Do.

Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan, kept with the Tang Soo Do name longer,before switching to Soo Bahk Do.

Hope this helps,
Mithios
 

Miles

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Miles why do you believe there is more than five story about each and every Kwon, why can we not have what is really the truth. I agree that master Cole is a great man and knows his history. I would like to have a converstation about the Ji do Kwon in depth and for real. can you give some insight to what you have been told personally?
Thank as always
Terry Stoker


Sorry Terry, I am not sure what you mean by "five stories"? My point, albeit obfuscated, was that Master Cole is a better source than Mr. Losik on all things Jidokwan, and I'll go as far as saying a better source for all things Taekwondo. I know the former deals with those who were present from the Jidokwan's beginning. I've read the latter's work and was not impressed. I'll leave it at that as I hear my mother's admonition about if you can't say anything nice,..... :) I sense RMclain would agree with me....

Miles
 

exile

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The first official kwan was the Chung Do Kwan founded by Won Kuk Lee in 1944, and the style was Tang Soo Do.Most people do not know that Won Kuk Lee was the first to call his style Tang Soo Do, as Chung Do Kwan was one of the first Kwan's to change to the name Tae Kwon-Do.

Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan, kept with the Tang Soo Do name longer,before switching to Soo Bahk Do.

Hope this helps,
Mithios

But Tang Soo Do wouldn't have been the name of a style back in 1944. At that point, it would simply have been the literal Korean translation of the name Kara te under the latter's `China Hand' transliteration. The other name in common use for the KMA that were the immediate ancestors of TKD was Kong Soo Do, meaing `empty hand', i.e., Kara te under its other transliteration. Both names were used just to describe the Shotokan/Shudokan karate that the Kwan founders (except for Hwang Kee) brought back with them from Japan. At that point, the era between the first efforts to get the kwans going and the beginning of the Korean War, the differences between the kwans would have probably reflected little more than the difference between which Japanese/Okinawan teacher the particular Kwan founder had studied with in Japan.

An awful lot of what passes for `TKD history', unfortunately, seems to be the endless chronicles of bickering and rivalry amongst the leading personalities of the day&#8212;the founders and their senior students. It's almost impossible to get one's hands on reliable information about the history that really counts: the nature of dojang practice, the changing technical content of the skill sets that students were expected to learn, how SD was trained, what sparring practice was like, the interpretation of the hyungs, and so on. It's sort of like getting your hands on what purports to be a book on paleontology, but which, instead of giving you information about the evolution and diversification of dinosaurs, fills page and chapter with stories about how the various rival expeditions to Asia in the 1920s, from New York, Chicago and other places, tried to pull numbers on each other and steal each other's glory. Very interesting, I'm sure... but what about the Beasts Themselves? So I'm very much hoping that Terry will be able to fill in some of the missing answers to the corresponding questions about Kwan era TKD. We need that info....
 
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terryl965

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Sorry Terry, I am not sure what you mean by "five stories"? My point, albeit obfuscated, was that Master Cole is a better source than Mr. Losik on all things Jidokwan, and I'll go as far as saying a better source for all things Taekwondo. I know the former deals with those who were present from the Jidokwan's beginning. I've read the latter's work and was not impressed. I'll leave it at that as I hear my mother's admonition about if you can't say anything nice,..... :) I sense RMclain would agree with me....

Miles


Miles I agree with you amd I had a great decussion with GM Park this wekend and he says this. History is in the eyes of those not there. He also says that there are too many storys around and it is better left alone.

So I too hear my mother calling. Goodnight.
 

Mithios

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But Tang Soo Do wouldn't have been the name of a style back in 1944. At that point, it would simply have been the literal Korean translation of the name Kara te under the latter's `China Hand' transliteration. The other name in common use for the KMA that were the immediate ancestors of TKD was Kong Soo Do, meaing `empty hand', i.e., Kara te under its other transliteration. Both names were used just to describe the Shotokan/Shudokan karate that the Kwan founders (except for Hwang Kee) brought back with them from Japan. At that point, the era between the first efforts to get the kwans going and the beginning of the Korean War, the differences between the kwans would have probably reflected little more than the difference between which Japanese/Okinawan teacher the particular Kwan founder had studied with in Japan.

An awful lot of what passes for `TKD history', unfortunately, seems to be the endless chronicles of bickering and rivalry amongst the leading personalities of the day&#8212;the founders and their senior students. It's almost impossible to get one's hands on reliable information about the history that really counts: the nature of dojang practice, the changing technical content of the skill sets that students were expected to learn, how SD was trained, what sparring practice was like, the interpretation of the hyungs, and so on. It's sort of like getting your hands on what purports to be a book on paleontology, but which, instead of giving you information about the evolution and diversification of dinosaurs, fills page and chapter with stories about how the various rival expeditions to Asia in the 1920s, from New York, Chicago and other places, tried to pull numbers on each other and steal each other's glory. Very interesting, I'm sure... but what about the Beasts Themselves? So I'm very much hoping that Terry will be able to fill in some of the missing answers to the corresponding questions about Kwan era TKD. We need that info....


Won Kuk Lee trained with Ginchin Funagoshi, and from what i gather called it Tang Soo Do (translation of Kara te-china hand) when he opened the CDK. I met a Mr.Park in KC that was an original graduate of the CDK under Won Kuk Lee, and this is the info i got. Also from what i understand Lee did not hide his Japanese connections as far as martial arts go's,and he was able to open the CDK because of some of those connections.



Martial arts history is a mess, that i can say!!

Mithios
 

YounWha

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I am trying to find lineage on my GM and TKD history - and like you all I find it filled with holes and differences.

From what I gathered a lot of politics and power struggles were going on and many Korean masters came to the US just so that they could teach/train in their system. I have heard too many horror stories to think that General Choi was a nice man - for example.

It's funny if you look back that many master's left in the mid 70's to come to the US.

I have also been told that Korean's in general are very quiet about their life.
 
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