Drug milkshake still no match for abstinence

[modarnis]

>> Exchange programs, rational support for addicts, and decriminalization have been proven to cut disease, crime, and social cost. That's the reality.>>

Proven by whom and when? As a criminal justice professional I'd be happy to have my workload cut. My reality is these programs don't work, crimes escalate as addictions deepen and the social costs of these failed programs and there externalities are staggering. Any martialtalk member who wants to come review the hard evidence in 5,000 sq ft plus of disposed files here in this jurisdiction is welcome to do so. Of todays 207 cases on my docket 98 were for repeat drug offenders/theives supporting drug habits who all had 2 or more previous opportunities at long term treatment, funded by the state, who now have new pending charges. Not a statistic, raw data. Rational support for addicts doing wonders here artyon:

 

[Tgace]

Statistics and studies are intended to be challenged by peer review. Anecdotal evidence at best leads to an hypothesis, which can then lead to proper evaluation.

An example: If a police officer offers his expertise concerning crimes and a specific minority he might well give his biased view that the minority in question is corrupt and immoral. If for twenty years he works that particular neighborhood and arrests mostly minority suspects, his bias is understandable. He's shaped his view of the minority on his extensive experience with one minority sub-group. We should not accept his evaluation of that minority as accurate, however, as it has been tainted by his limited experience with that one sub-group. Elsewhere that minority might set a standard of excellence and responsibility. An individual's world view is not subject to measured evaluation. A much larger test sample is required involving many sub-groups of that minority.

If I say my experience with vitamin intake clearly indicates that vitamins cure a specific ailment, one shouldn't trust that to be true. The aspirin I take with that vitamin regimen might be easing the symptoms of that ailment, and I'm incorrectly assuming that the vitamins are responsible for my relief. Time and the body's natural healing processes might also be skewing my perception.

Folk remedies involving willow bark lead to anecdotal reports of relief of pain. Studies of the isolated salicylates in willow bark lead to solid evidence of its efficacy and voila!...we have aspirin. The hypothesis is born out through proper testing and evaluation. The anecdotal reports of the healing power of crystals and pyramids haven't enjoyed that measure of success, however.

I'd take anecdotal evidence with a measure of skepticism. It's perhaps interesting, and might lead to eventual illumination, but most likely not without reasoned examination and trial.

Regards,


Steve

Thats exactly what I mean...Instead of dismissing peoples personal experience out of hand because its "anecdotal" (and a cheap argument winning ploy), perhaps they should just be listened too and wait and see how many others experience the same thing. That persons experience IS their reality and thats what (in a large part) they are going to base their politics, opinion, and votes on, so it is relavent to that extent....when that one police officer is echoed by 1,000's of others around the nation, perhaps there is something going on (which is by far more about economics and culture than race BTW). The constant cry for studies and stats is tiring. I post my opinion and experience and whatever research I can find or feel interested enough to dig up. I note that a lot of people claiming that they know things to a scientific "fact" and demanding stats arent even presenting any of their own first, other than "everybody knows that Europe has better......"

 

[rmcrobertson]

I would be very interested to see information on where it is in this country that we've applied a large-scale experiment in reality based sex and drug education, decriminalization of drugs, and programs such as needle exchange coupled with addict support on anything resembling a European scale for an extended period of time.

I was under the impression that we'd simply adamantly fought against sex and drug ed that worked, needle exchanges, decriminalization, etc., pouring more and more money into enforcement, cutting counseling and other programs, and locking up more of a percentage of our population that Russian and China, only to watch drug rates soar.

Please explain exactly where this has been different.

 

[Tgace]

The U.S. stance on adopting European Drug policy, which is tied to the AIDS issue...

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/09so.htm

 

[Tgace]

Heres a more balanced (realistic) opinion of European drug policy (as drug use is tied to AIDS rate)..I realize that the DEA's data will be pooh-poohed by some here...

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19991101faresponse1027/joris-vos-joseph-a-califano-jr/dazed-and-confused-smoke-and-mirrors-over-dutch-drug-policy.html

http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/drugpolicyby/westerneurop/sweden/

 

[modarnis]

>>large-scale experiment in reality based sex and drug education>>

With respect to drugs have you heard of the DARE program or MADD or SADD? Children have grown up over the last decade and a half with widespread education about drugs of abuse and alcohol abuse as it relates to drunk driving. Despite this widespread and mainstream education at an early age, there is still growing percentage of teens and young adults using and abusing drugs and alcohol. Ecstacy, methamphetamine, and a variety of inhalants are an evergrowing problem despite these education efforts. MADD and SADD have been around since the 80's. I'm 21 years out of high school and remember these programs in their infancy. Drunk driving behavior among young adults has remained constant despite those long term efforts that focus on people before they have acute or chronic addictions. Are we to glean from this that education doesn't work?

As for sex education, this varies based on community standards and is impacted by parent's perspectives on religion and morality. Certainly mainstream media sources have hammered the condom message home for a very long time. College campuses and places like planned parenthood, community based health centers have the resources available for people to avail themselves of. At some point people must become responsible for their own conduct. How much education or how many attempts at treatment are enough before more draconian measures need to take place? Buracracy, pharmecuticals, or hollow rhetoric from any political viewpoint can't replace common sense or the swift kick in the rear type consequence many people need to alter their behavior

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Fair enough about Sweden. However, the other article is a rebuttal of attacks on drug policy in the Netherlands.

2. The claim that, "a swift kick," or whatever will solve all problems is ludicrous, though I agreed with much of the remainder of that paragraph. More to the point, this is a highly-ideological and probably rightist theory, NOT a simple reflection of practical reality--though of course everybody always claims that they're just tellin' it like it is, and it's always the OTHER guy who's ideological.

3. How "draconian," do ya wanna get? We have more of a percentage of our citizens in jail than just about anybody else on the planet; we have Mandatory Minimum sentence rules, we have three strikes here in California too. We've cut treatment, pushed zero tolerance--and on and on, and on, and drug use and jailed numbers keep climbing, we're told. What's recommended? Automatic public executions?

 

[Ray]

Anecdotal evidence at best leads to an hypothesis, which can then lead to proper evaluation.

Folk remedies involving willow bark lead to anecdotal reports of relief of pain. Studies of the isolated salicylates in willow bark lead to solid evidence of its efficacy and voila!...we have aspirin.

The folk remedy didn't just lead to anecdotal reports of relief of pain, it also lead to actual relief of pain.

The studies which allowed for isolated and identification of the active ingrediant allowed for better understanding of the risks & benefits, as well as, the ability to better control dosage.

Yes, we can do well to make use of science and technology to improve our lives. But I don't need a scientific study to know that eating oreos all day is going to make me fat (oops...I'm mean fatter).

 

[Ray]

WWJD? Needle exchange! The so-called "gospels" make it a point to spotlight Jesus' propensity to hang out with the undesirable and untouchable elements of society...the "unclean", such as prostitutes, lepers and tax collectors. He broke bread with them, and shared the majority of his miracles with them.

Do not forget that this loving Jesus you describe also expected those people to repent and to live their lives differently. A couple of examples:

John 5:14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John 8:11 - 12: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condem thee: go, and sin no more.

Why is it that we (and I don't excuse myself from this) only want to put forth items that support our views and ignore the "inconvenient" things that our sources say?

 

[modarnis]

>>2. The claim that, "a swift kick," or whatever will solve all problems is ludicrous, though I agreed with much of the remainder of that paragraph. More to the point, this is a highly-ideological and probably rightist theory, NOT a simple reflection of practical reality--though of course everybody always claims that they're just tellin' it like it is, and it's always the OTHER guy who's ideological.>>

I don't believe I ever said a swift kick would solve everything. I did say that people need some consequence for their inappropriate behaviors and likened it to the swift kick (whether physical or verbal) that when I was growing up people wanted to avoid. At some point it fell out of favor for people to take any responsibility for their actions.

If our jails are more full than other places and that doesn't serve as the kind of consequence most people would want to avoid, what does that really say about our society?

 

[Ray]

The claim that, "a swift kick," or whatever will solve all problems is ludicrous, though...

What, then, is all the bag work for if not to develop a swift and powerful kick.

If our jails are more full than other places and that doesn't serve as the kind of consequence most people would want to avoid, what does that really say about our society?

Either our jails are too soft or the things that put us there are too fun?

 

[rmcrobertson]

The rise and rise in jail populations appears to be directly linked to the rise and rise in harsher and harsher anti-drug laws, and these in their turn appear to be largely ideologically driven.

Behind the latest comments are another set of ideological propositions: particularly, the problem with our society is that we're too soft on crime, that jails are too easy, etc.

 

[Ray]

Behind the latest comments are another set of ideological propositions: particularly, the problem with our society is that we're too soft on crime, that jails are too easy, etc.

Let me try to restate my proposition: The "punishment" of jail must be inferior to the "reward" of the act that put us there. A contrived example: the high (reward) that we get from smoking crack is worth taking the chance of going to jail (punishment) for.

If random reward schedules (like slot machine payoffs) do encourage a behavior (putting quarters in) then doesn't the lack of punishment with every single instance of criminal behavior seem to be something of a reward?

So: either the jails are too easy (to endure to stop the behaviors classified as crime) or the things we do to get put there are too fun (to make us stop doing the behaviors classified as crimes).

Do I personally think that jail is the best way to stop some of these behaviors. No. Do I think that legalizing recreational drug use is a wonderful idea. No.

My solution, I don't use drugs. My older brother's solution: die homeless. Anecdotal? Yes. True? Yes. Would legalization have helped my brother? Nope.

Does it require a scientific study? No. Those who wish to take the risk in favor of a violation of a crime (a more with serious, official consequences) may do so. Those who wish to try to legalize some of this stuff may also do so. Me? I'm not going to use drugs by choice; my brother also quit by consequence.

Consequences. Lets find a way to eliminate them from our behaviors rather than modify our behaviors to avoid undesirable consequences?

 

[heretic888]

Instead of dismissing peoples personal experience out of hand because its "anecdotal" (and a cheap argument winning ploy)

'Fraid you got it the other way around, Mr. Kettle Pot Black.

Trying to make a public discourse into a personal and emotional matter --- or using one's professional "authority" as a basis for truthfulness --- is the logical fallacy, not pointing out ancedotes just don't constitute very good evidence. For elaboration on these themes:

Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Emotion
Biased Sample
Burden of Proof
Misleading Vividness
Slippery Slope
Spotlight

perhaps they should just be listened too and wait and see how many others experience the same thing.

So is this selection process as to how many of X believe in Y going to be acquired through random sampling?? Or, are we going on the appeal to common practice here??

That persons experience IS their reality and thats what (in a large part) they are going to base their politics, opinion, and votes on, so it is relavent to that extent....when that one police officer is echoed by 1,000's of others around the nation, perhaps there is something going on (which is by far more about economics and culture than race BTW).

Ah, the appeal to common practice it is, then.

The constant cry for studies and stats is tiring.

If you find the burden of proof to be such a, well, burden, then its perhaps best not to make unsubstantiated claims based on the "personal experiences" of a few anonymous individuals.

Ta ta.

 

[heretic888]

Why is it that we (and I don't excuse myself from this) only want to put forth items that support our views and ignore the "inconvenient" things that our sources say?

Because, the vast majority of individuals do not possess a worldview that can support seemingly different or conflicting claims and positions.

 

[heretic888]

I don't believe I ever said a swift kick would solve everything. I did say that people need some consequence for their inappropriate behaviors and likened it to the swift kick (whether physical or verbal) that when I was growing up people wanted to avoid. At some point it fell out of favor for people to take any responsibility for their actions.

It should be noted, however, that the negative punishment tactic from the school of behaviorism has limited utility against adults. In fact, its pretty much intended wholly for pre-pubescents.

If our jails are more full than other places and that doesn't serve as the kind of consequence most people would want to avoid, what does that really say about our society?

That, perhaps we shouldn't continue to practice legal policies established by the Reagan administration??

 

[heretic888]

Let me try to restate my proposition: The "punishment" of jail must be inferior to the "reward" of the act that put us there. A contrived example: the high (reward) that we get from smoking crack is worth taking the chance of going to jail (punishment) for.

Not necessarily.

Its just, very simply, that the "reward" vs "punishment" schema is very, very ineffective against adults.

 

[Tgace]

Read (or read into) things however you want...I note that Hardhead states pretty much what I believe as well...anecdotal evidence isnt to be ignored but isnt to be accepted as "fact" or "proof" either. As to discussion here and "demanding" stats and proof to back up your opinion...what is this place anyway? A discussion board. I dont sit around the coffee shop with my friends with a stack of studies and reports to back up what I talk about. If thats going to be your standard for discussion then go back to the classroom. Ill say again that personal experience ISNT "fact" but to the person who had those experiences its how they view "reality" and how they base their actions, decisions, political views and votes and on that basis alone shouldnt be ignored or used as a tool to "win" (is there any winning around here anyway?) a debate in an internet forum.

I wonder what a Zen master would say about this debate and the relationship between academic/scientific and presonal experience??

 

[Tgace]

Probably that neither approach is "reality"......

Personally, if somebody has a view contrary to mine and I believe I have scientific "proof" for my stance, Ill show that proof and let the other person either debate that proof, show a contrary study or just ignore it...I dont start out by saying "Oh yeah? Show me some proof for that, otherwise Im right and I win!" Which is the way many people come off. If you believe you have the goods, show them and let them stand for themselves......if its not worth the time then just let the discussion remain a friendly difference of opinion.

 

[heretic888]

Read (or read into) things however you want...I note that Hardhead states pretty much what I believe as well...anecdotal evidence isnt to be ignored but isnt to be accepted as "fact" or "proof" either.

I don't recall saying anything about "ignoring" anything. I'm just not going to blithely accept the word of an anonymous source as the gospel truth. Its not that difficult of a concept.

As to discussion here and "demanding" stats and proof to back up your opinion...what is this place anyway? A discussion board. I dont sit around the coffee shop with my friends with a stack of studies and reports to back up what I talk about. If thats going to be your standard for discussion then go back to the classroom.

I would appreciate you not telling me what to do.

And, you can discuss here however you want, but when you make an unsubstantiated claim, expect the burden of proof to be leveled against you.

And, furthermore, when you engage in the any of the logical fallacies linked before, expect those to be leveled against you, as well.

Ill say again that personal experience ISNT "fact" but to the person who had those experiences its how they view "reality" and how they base their actions, decisions, political views and votes and on that basis alone shouldnt be ignored or used as a tool to "win" (is there any winning around here anyway?) a debate in an internet forum?

No, there are no "winners" in an unofficial debate (although some people have tried to tell me otherwise on ocassion).

In any event, what so-and-so's "reality" is nice and all, but fairly irrelevant in a public discourse if they can't argue it beyond making authoritative claims about their "profession" or "experience".

I wonder what a Zen master would say about this debate and the relationship between academic/scientific and presonal experience??

If you don't think there's peer review in Zen, you obviously don't know too much about Zen.