Drop the Kata?

[James Kovacich]

The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?

These are the words of a famous martial artist.

“Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.”

 

[MJS]

The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?

These are the words of a famous martial artist.

“Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.”

Seeing that there're 2 questions here, I'll answer each one seperate.

1) Keep/drop the kata? Really doesn't matter to me. The majority of arts that I've done have kata, so I'm used to them by now. However, while I do think that there's value in them, ie: being able to extract techs. from them, I do not feel that kata should be the sole determining basis as to whether or not your art will a) be effective and b) whether or not you can fight. The techs. that are in the system and getting into the ring and sparring is, IMO, a good portion of the meat and potatoes.

2) How would my art fair in Hawaii today? Well, thats where my Kenpo came from back then, so I'd say that many of the Ken(m)po/Kaju systems already have alot of respect. However, much has changed from back then to today, meaning that if the same mentality that they had back then was used today, there'd be lawyers camping outside of every Kenpo school in the world. LOL! IMO, I'm all for a hard workout. Thats what the training is about, and it should be tough, there should be contact. That being said, I'm sure there is stuff thats been modified for today.

This is why I feel that people should know what they're getting into before they join up. If they dont feel that they can handle the contact, the training, etc., then perhaps they should find another hobby or accept it.

I'm sure if you compared a Kenpo school in any state to what you'd see in Hawaii, I'm sure there're differences. Never been to Hawaii...hopefully one day....but I just have a feeling that if you weren't prepared to bang, then you're gonna be in for a rude awakening.

 

[James Kovacich]

I like your posts, you are a really objective person! I think my point is leaning towards "better spent" training time "decifering"which takes a lifetime or "honing the tools."

Also training tools that apply to anything versus tools that are "specific use" ingrained over time.

 

[MJS]

I like your posts, you are a really objective person! I think my point is leaning towards "better spent" training time "decifering"which takes a lifetime or "honing the tools."

Also training tools that apply to anything versus tools that are "specific use" ingrained over time.

Thank you. Likewise I have enjoyed reading your posts here.

I suppose, it comes down to what someone wants to get out of their training. Training, regardless of what it is, can take a life time IMO. But, how do we want to spend that lifetime, as you suggested here? I could take the first move out of Parkers Short Form 2, which is stepping forward with the right foot, while doing a right inward block, followed by a right outward handsword. I can apply that move to a number of things, but, seeing that there're already hundreds of techs., in addition to things that we come up with on the fly, so thats why I feel while there are benefits of kata, I dont need them as a sole source to fight or find a tech to do.

 

[LawDog]

In the system that I teach there are only five full empty hand forms, two kicking kata's and 4 weapons forms.
*All of the empty hand forms are assigned by rank however a student is not required to learn them. These kata's are "optional" training material.
*The weapons forms are not assigned to any rank level and are optional to learn as well.
*The kicking kata's are used to develop kicking skills that can match hand skills. These kata's are not rank required but the students must be able to do them at their own rank level.

Two acquire a teaching or rank examiners certificate a black belt must know all of the material, including the forms.

 

[jamz]

I like katas because I think they can train your body into moving well, as well as being able to practice stuff at more or less full force, something you can't do unless you can get 3-4 people to come at you with pads at the proper time.

I think they help balance incorporate into movement, and in a fight you will probably be moving, and will probably benefit from balance, and having practiced same, even if the movement you are doing in real life does not resemble any set kata whatsoever.

Plus, I think it looks cool.

 

[punisher73]

As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.

My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?

That being said. It all boils down to the training methods and how you are learning to condition and apply what you knowl. I have known TKD guys that have definately held their own on the street (art used as an example since it is most often criticized as being a McDojo and can't be used in "real life") and trained hard for the street. If on the other hand you got a Kajukenbo instructor (an art which is known for it's rough and tough training and effectiveness) and decided he just wanted to make money and turned his school into a McDojo and his students always got beat on the street, is it the art that is at fault or the way it was taught?

Everything in MA has a time and place and function, from conditioning, basics, kata and drills. It is up to the instructor and student to understand what those are.

 

[Danjo]

As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.

My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?

Here's what Chuck Liddell says in his autobiography:

"[Hackleman's] style of fighting was called Kajukenbo, which was created by a group of Hawaiian martial artists in the mid 1940's. It was hard-core. The guys who started it weren't looking for some kind of inner peace. They developed Kajukenbo because they wanted to become better street fighters...The Pit was for hard-core devotees of the martial arts. Then he [Hackleman] realized owning a gym called the Pit and having a rep for teaching what was essentially street fighting didn't exactly invite the widest swath of customers. That's when he tweaked the Kajukenbo style and created his signature form of karate, Hawaiian Kempo. It had all the striking and fighting techniques of Kaju, along with conditioning drills that made it more mainstream."

So essentially he shifted the emphasis away from strictly self defense/street fighting, towards sports competition MMA. That's why he dropped the forms etc.

 

[suicide]

ive seen that kempo tattoo on chucks arm whats his lineage or where and from who did he learn kempo ?

 

[Twin Fist]

from john hackleman, a kajukenbo BB

 

[James Kovacich]

Sometime before his death, Walter Godin promoted John Hackelman to 10th degree.

 

[James Kovacich]

As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.

My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?

That being said. It all boils down to the training methods and how you are learning to condition and apply what you knowl. I have known TKD guys that have definately held their own on the street (art used as an example since it is most often criticized as being a McDojo and can't be used in "real life") and trained hard for the street. If on the other hand you got a Kajukenbo instructor (an art which is known for it's rough and tough training and effectiveness) and decided he just wanted to make money and turned his school into a McDojo and his students always got beat on the street, is it the art that is at fault or the way it was taught?

Everything in MA has a time and place and function, from conditioning, basics, kata and drills. It is up to the instructor and student to understand what those are.

John Hackelmans MMA came before the term MMA came into use. My brother-in-laws instructor also was mixing martial arts back in the '70's. http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

They were profighters and some including my brother-in-law fought pro boxers under boxing rules.

 

[takadadojokeith]

I say keep the kata, but remember it's of a memory device and a decent aerobic workout than fight-specific training.

 

[James Kovacich]

I was looking to see how people viewed reality training and if they "think" what they do is enough. Having 2 eskrima instructors has helped fill a couple of holes for me.

But the the questions that come to me revolve around footwork. The traditional training builds the solid foundation that I think many are missing today but where do we go with it?

As Mr. Hayashi trained my brother-in-law and he in turn trained me that at 4th kyu all of the traditional material is tested from a kickboxing stance. So that meant as soon as one passed their 5th kyu test they needed to also attend the intermediate class. From 4th kyu and above all tests are cover all the material from 10th kyu all the way to whatever rank is being tested for.

When the UFC hit the USA I thought for sure our Kumiuchi (Mr. Hayashis pro's) fighters would of done well. But would they? Fighting is such an evolving process, something that may never be needed but if it is, will it work?

I do kata but it's not a focal point of my training. I do it for one of my instructors and at some point I may decide to add a traditional class. I've had many problems in my life, growing up a bit wild in the '70's. When my sister got married, it was her husban that helped me clear my head with traditional Karate, Judo/Jujutsu, Kobudo, Aikido and Kumiuchi along with meditation and all the other traditions.

It would be foolish to say that my past trainings and other peoples trainings have little value because I am proof that their is value that most may never see.

But I think that todays styles need to include enough of what our founders went through in order to discover what we really have and if it will save life.

 

[Danjo]

Sometime before his death, Walter Godin promoted John Hackelman to 10th degree.

Yes but it was in Kempo, not Kajukenbo. Godin was a 10th under Prof. Chow as well as a Kaju black belt. http://thepitmalibu.com/hawaiiankempohistory.html

 

[Milt G.]

The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?

These are the words of a famous martial artist.

“Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.”

Hello,

As my martial art study is not based on the ability to "brawl on the street", I do not think the study of kata or forms should be dropped. Technology has allowed for alternatives to that situation. Logical thought and action can, and should, help too. The individual practitioner and their training determines the effectiveness of their art.

Even if it (my motivation) was based only on pure aggressive fighting ability, I would still keep the kata, but perhaps spend a little less time working them. Like, if I lived in a neighborhood that I had to fight my way in and out of, and was void of my sidearm. I bet that I would probably move first, though.
It is true that kata is not actual fighting, but kata does contain key aspects of martial movement and motion worth studying IMO. To give up kata is to give up the "art" aspect of the martial arts, or Kenpo. What you have left, without kata, is a martial science. Somewhat different then a martial art.

While I enjoyed the "clip", on some level, I cannot imagine myself being involved in such a situation. I believe that was meant to show a "contest" of some sort? If I were involved in something like that I would think most of my training, in general, would have already failed me in some critical way.

So, I say no... Keep the kata and taylor your training and study to what your goals are. if your "goal" is to be a streetfighter (and I have no idea why anyone would wish to "aspire" to that) you will probably have less time to spend on the study of kata. I do not think they should be dropped, though.

Thank you.
Milt G.

 

[suicide]

how far did chuck liddell get in his kenpo ?

 

[KenpoDave]

But I think that today's styles need to include enough of what our founders went through in order to discover what we really have and if it will save life.

Well put. We seem to be willing to question what we do, and overly eager to discard what has been done without enough fundamental experience to know what it is we are actually discarding.

 

[punisher73]

John Hackelmans MMA came before the term MMA came into use. My brother-in-laws instructor also was mixing martial arts back in the '70's. http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

They were profighters and some including my brother-in-law fought pro boxers under boxing rules.

Kajukenbo is often called the "first mixed martial art" by several high ranking Kajukenbo people. The reference was in the mixing of arts, not something based on the popular sports contests. Kajukenbo was the first art to combine aspects of different arts and put them into a formal systematized method of learning in America.

 

[punisher73]

The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?

Kajukenbo was NOT designed to be used against unskilled streetbrawlers. It was designed by the founders to be effective against the most common types of fighters that they would encounter. At the time this was mainly boxers and people with FMA training. Hawaii was a melting pot of martial arts back in the early 40's and 50's. I would say that even though the arts might be more accessible to the average person, I would say that the fighters back then were a lot tougher.

So as to the original question, I would say that they would do very well if trained properly. But, if your only goal is to fight, all you really need are a few good basics and tactics and then train them inside and out in all types of scenarios.