Dojo Training: 40s & 50s

['Ailina]

Hello, everyone.

I'm new to the MartialTalk.com forums, and this is my first post. I hope this is the appropriate place for my question.

My question is for any practitioners who may have trained in Kenpo/Kempo between in the 40s and/or 50s. I'm most interested in what may have taken place in Hawai'i during that time, but I'm curious to read responses from anyone who may have trained then.

What were some of the ways students "toughened up" or worked on strength and endurance in the dojo during that time?

I've heard things before, like kneeling on rice; spearing sand, pebbles, rice; etc. I know some of the things I've heard may be legend or exaggerations, but I'd really like to know some methods that really took place.

For example: my father once said they used to punch boards with bottle caps mounted on them. Someone suggested this might have been an alternative to punching boards wrapped with rope cord.

Did anyone here do this? Or have you heard of similar training?

Looking forward to reading more in the forums and getting to know all of you. Thanks...
'Ailina

 

[dkpd2200]

Welcome. I'm fairly new to this website myself. That is true. Alot of martial art practitioners used those types of items to toughen their body. That's really all they had back then. They had to improvise. Now, martial arts are alot more common. You can go to any one of the numerous websites and get all kinds of training accessories. I practice Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I know that the Muay Thai fighters would kick bananna tree's to toughen their shins. It seems like every art form has a unique connection with nature, and how they utilize it in their training routines.

 

[John Bishop]

Just heard various stories from the Hawaiian old timers. Banana trees were used as makiwara and for stick training, because the trees were heavy and dense, but had some give to them. Like very dense sponge. The old timers would always have a hand size canvas makiwara or flat rock to carry around and punch. And makiwaras were pretty easy to make with some 2x4's and canvas or rope.
They would mix spit and cigarette ashes together and apply it to their knuckles while working the makiwara. That sort of tattooed their knuckles black, and made them very noticeable.
Like this:

 

[Kenpobrother]

Just heard various stories from the Hawaiian old timers. Banana trees were used as makiwara and for stick training, because the trees were heavy and dense, but had some give to them. Like very dense sponge. The old timers would always have a hand size canvas makiwara or flat rock to carry around and punch. And makiwaras were pretty easy to make with some 2x4's and canvas or rope.
They would mix spit and cigarette ashes together and apply it to their knuckles while working the makiwara. That sort of tattooed their knuckles black, and made them very noticeable.
Like this:

Professor Bishop,

Were the ashes used to aid the training, or just to highlight an already frightening fist?

Years ago I saw an article with a picture of Professor Chow's hands. The caption was 'The knuckles developed by Professor chow'. Sadly I lost the issue. Was that your work?

Brown

 

[John Bishop]

Professor Bishop,

Were the ashes used to aid the training, or just to highlight an already frightening fist?

Brown

I seem to recall being told it was for a tattooing effect, to make the knuckles look really prominent.

Years ago I saw an article with a picture of Professor Chow's hands. The caption was 'The knuckles developed by Professor chow'. Sadly I lost the issue. Was that your work?

Brown

I don't think it was one of my articles, since I don't have a picture like that. But sometimes the magazines would add some of their file photos
to a article.
It's more likely it was one of the articles/interviews that the magazines did on Sam Kuoha.

 

[Kenpobrother]

Thank you.

Brown

 

['Ailina]

I apologize it's taken many months to revisit this thread.

Thank you for the information. I didn't know about the ashes markings, but I find that so interesting you have a photo sample.

I remember my father's knuckles being dark like that, but I don't think it's because of ashes. I think he just did a lot of work around the house. ;D

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Life magazine has some photos of that era:

Life Magazine Karate Photos

Karate Knuckles:

Karate Knuckles Photo

TKD Face Cement Break:

Life Magazine TKD Cement Smash

 

[seasoned]

I apologize it's taken many months to revisit this thread.

Thank you for the information. I didn't know about the ashes markings, but I find that so interesting you have a photo sample.

I remember my father's knuckles being dark like that, but I don't think it's because of ashes. I think he just did a lot of work around the house. ;D

On a serious note, training was a bit extreme, way back when. What value, I am not sure, but a few times a month we would take a cold shower with our Gi's on, and then go out for training in the snow. Beach training was also used, it was hard getting balance for kata and sparring, while in the sand. We would also train in knee high water with kicks. Any kind of body protection was frowned on, and even made fun of. If you didn't use it in the street for self defense, then you didn't use it in class. Because of the bare knuckle sparring, it behooved us to condition our hands because of the occasional contact with an opponents elbow. This would sometimes slow us down, but never under any circumstances stop a match. Also, the conditioned knuckles really enhanced the striking power. All in all our training was geared for self defense and not for tournaments or competition, and for that reason nothing fancy was ever used, including high kicks. The training at times, was severe, because as a whole it is the mind that gives up first, so consequently, the never give up attitude, was instilled from day one.

 

['Ailina]

Seasoned, that is absolutely fascinating. I cannot imagine enduring that kind of training.

When you described the cold shower, training in the snow, I thought of what I read in Funakoshi's book, Karate Dō, about how he never did anything to counter the temperature. When it was cold, he didn't eat warm food or dress warmly. When it was hot, he didn't eat cold food or wear cool clothes.

You mentioned...

"The training at times, was severe, because as a whole it is the mind that gives up first, so consequently, the never give up attitude, was instilled from day one."

Do you feel the severity of your training accomplished what it was intended to?

 

[seasoned]

If you quit, no, if you survived, yes. Dojo's were small back then, it was more then some could handle. There was no coddling, if you started class, you finished class, no matter what. If you got hit, or hurt in any way, it was your fault, and your's alone. No passing the buck, this was the closest to combat you could come, in a training atmosphere.

 

[Danjo]

The main thing from those days is that all training was very serious. People were there to learn how to fight and not for some social/ health club type of reason. The training was severe by modern standards for that reason. Sijo and others wanted people to "feel the techniques" so that they would understand how effective they were. People tried to push themselves past what other people could or would do normally, so that they could easily win a fight if they got into one. "The workout's not over till there's blood on the floor." was the motto of the early Kajukenbo schools, and people trained to exhaustion for the most part. Now..............well, things are different. There are still some with that approach, but for the most part it's toned down. Even those that train for fighting as their main focus, don't train as hard as the old days. It all comes down to intent (and insurance).

 

[Twin Fist]

and liability

 

['Ailina]

I assume there may still be dojos that train in this "old way," but I imagine there aren't many students.

I'm something of a purist (in matters not relative to martial arts, as well), so I have a preference against innovation and dilution, though I do acknowledge progress does have its place in the arts.

I'm thinking the place martial arts holds in present times is much different from the place it held in the 40s & 50s. I wonder how WWII influenced practitioners/would-be practitioners. I'm sure the war was on everyone's mind at the time, and surely that had some effect on how/how hard students trained?

Of course, our world is warring now, too, but I think individual mindset, context, and purposes for training are much different now.

 

[Danjo]

I assume there may still be dojos that train in this "old way," but I imagine there aren't many students.

I'm something of a purist (in matters not relative to martial arts, as well), so I have a preference against innovation and dilution, though I do acknowledge progress does have its place in the arts.

I'm thinking the place martial arts holds in present times is much different from the place it held in the 40s & 50s. I wonder how WWII influenced practitioners/would-be practitioners. I'm sure the war was on everyone's mind at the time, and surely that had some effect on how/how hard students trained?

Of course, our world is warring now, too, but I think individual mindset, context, and purposes for training are much different now.

It may have more to do with modern society in general. Kids are simply more sedintary than they used to be. They tend to play on computers rather than climb trees and fences. They play war games rather than rough house with each other. They've largely taken monkey bars and jungle gyms off of elementary school playgrounds, and kids have to wear helmets while riding their bikes (as opposed to jumping them off of home made ramps in the alleys like we used to.) You can't ride in the back of a pick-up and you have to wear seatbelts etc. Boy's have their hair styled and worry about their clothes. That mentality has permeated our society and culture, and has also seeped into the martial arts scene.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I started long after the 50s training MA but you still had rather small dojos in the early 70s that trained with no protective gear, no mates and hard sparing at least that was my intro to MA in Jujitsu. I would not doubt it had softened up some since the 50s by that time but in the last 35 years things seem to have gotten unbelievably soft and I do think it is due mostly to liability and a sue happy society and then throw in what Danjo is talking about and let it keep going this way and you could end up with a black belt in pillow fighting.

 

['Ailina]

(I hope I'm not drifting too far off-topic, but...)

...let it keep going this way and you could end up with a black belt in pillow fighting.

Do you think maybe this is why MMA is becoming so popular? There's a desire for the hard "old school" training?

Or do you think MMA is a completely different animal? By definition, I think it would be, but what about the fundamental training philosophy? Are MMA training and the hard training in the 40s & 50s comparable?

 

[Xue Sheng]

(I hope I'm not drifting too far off-topic, but...)



Do you think maybe this is why MMA is becoming so popular? There's a desire for the hard "old school" training?

Or do you think MMA is a completely different animal? By definition, I think it would be, but what about the fundamental training philosophy? Are MMA training and the hard training in the 40s & 50s comparable?

I think a little of both.

MMA is popular so a lot of people go train it. Some like the hard training, some like the MA of the minute and other for various other reasons. What I see in the future of a lot of MMA schools (if it lasts long enough) is people making it easier so get more students.

But I will admit I have been tempted more than once to go to one of the local MMA schools to get back into some harder (but different) training and I will leave it at that a sure way to guarantee thread drift is to go into MMA stuff.

I think the overall philosophy is different however. One trains to fight an opponent they may see in the next match one trains not to fight and if they do plans to never see that opponent again.

 

[seasoned]

Not to step on toes, but a few cents to add. I feel that mind set is the big difference. In the old days there was nothing to prove to anyone, but yourself. If the mind set is geared toward competition, then that is foremost on your mind. Not to take anything away from anyone training in todays dojo, because there are a lot of karate people that train very hard. But in the day that we are all talking about here, it was for blood and guts, with a do or die mentality. We trained under all conditions, if something was broke, tape it, if something was sprained, wrap it. The whole idea was, self defense, didn't take time off. If we were hurt, we trained anyway.

 

['Ailina]

Not to step on toes, but a few cents to add. I feel that mind set is the big difference. In the old days there was nothing to prove to anyone, but yourself.

Yes, I observed this in my father. Even though I wasn't born yet in my father's early training, he did "speak from a different time period" at certain points in his life.

In the 70s and 80s, his dojo was very much wrapped up in competition, and so I think his personal purpose changed. But there were times, especially when he would talk with friends from the "old school", when his early experience and training seemed to come over him like -- for lack of a better word -- a trance.

I think it a very provocative and intensely interesting subject, to explore how martial artists "straddled" two very different eras of training. I acknowledge my father's experience may not have been the common experience, or the exception to the rule, but I know there are/were others like him. Culture and distance from his training hombu probably played a lot into his development and the change in his purpose; for others, there may have been entirely different factors. But it still intrigues me.