Short Form 2

[warriorsage]

I've read on a few websites and forums that the downward raking middle knuckle (with the wide kneel) in short two is incorrect AND that is was designed purposely that way by Mr. Parker to see if his students were actively investigating the forms. I don't personally like the strike, or atleast haven't been taught to use it properly, but I thought that was my shortcoming. I would find it odd if Mr. Parker actually designed things incorrectly on purpose, despite the logic behind it.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard this, or if some of the seniors would care to throw their $.02 in (HINT: that means you Mr. C).

 

[Rainman]

There is some very cool stuff in short form 2. One principle it highlights is centrifugal force. From the outward block punch combo facing 3 o'clock rear cross to 4:30 and use your feet to unwind into your wide kneel. Your hands/arms are in the shape of a 90 degree angle in front of your chest with the corner formed in front of your rt pectoral muscle. At the point were max torque is achieved your hands should be striking in the form of a rt. middle knuckle and lt. upward "block". That is just one of the things that can make that movement more fun. Also realize that each movement has more than one application.

:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Warriorsage,

I used to study under Frank Trejo until a few months ago, and his explanation of the middle knuckle strike (which you are referencing) completely coincides with what you wrote. Although I train under Bryan Hawkins now, I haven't really asked him but I think I will pose the question to him when I get the chance tomorrow.

Hope this helps,
Billy Lear

P.S. I'll write Mr. Hawkins' reply to you as soon as I get the chance. (He was one of Mr. Parker's more prominent students in the later years and might have some interesting insight.)

 

[kenpo3631]

I was taught the same thing by my instructor, Lee Wedlake Jr., that the middle knuckle was taught incorrect for the same reasons you stated. However RainMan's statement or for a better use of phraseology the "term" centrifugal force, I don't necessarily agree with.

"One principle it highlights is centrifugal force. From the outward block punch combo facing 3 o'clock rear cross to 4:30 and use your feet to unwind into your wide kneel"

I was taught that it shows the principle of torque. The first three sets of movement in the form show, (amongst other things), how to use the three power priciples.

1. Five Swords = Back Up Mass, 2. Block and punch to 3 & 9 = Torque, and 3. Wide kneel, upward block, middle knuckle = Marriage with Gravity.

Dennis come on I know you have more to add for us

:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

First of all ... And just curious ... Why would SGM Parker design a single flaw into a single kata/set/form to be investigated, perhaps by chance? If that were the case, then in my concept, that would begin to make the rest of the kata/set/form(s) suspect. If that is the case then, again, in my concept that would make the kata/set/form(s) pretty much invalid for anything other than wasting time that could be better spent elsewhere in your system ...

If all of the above is turkey-twattle, then what technique do you use in its place? Do you teach it only as a technique? Or do you teach it as a modification within Short #2?

Please rebut with some convincing discussions?

Thanks,

Dan Farmer

 

[Rainman]

I was taught that it shows the principle of torque. The first three sets of movement in the form show, (amongst other things), how to use the three power priciples.

1. Five Swords = Back Up Mass, 2. Block and punch to 3 & 9 = Torque, and 3. Wide kneel, upward block, middle knuckle = Marriage with Gravity.

That's great if you are an orange belt because it is very basic and easy to understand. There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon. Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed. Upon impact is where they are felt along with breath and projection the culmination of which is deemed focus.

Centrifugal force is good to look at from the ram (second tek) on because it aids in keeping the arms relaxed and aids in the whip that can be included if one decides to keep the movements in the form continueus.


:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

No, I don't believe it was taught as incorrect. It accomplishes its purpose. While the wide kneel teaches how to drop quickly (vertically) we also learn a new hand combination definition - of front hand Upward action "with" a downward vertical "raking" strike. Upon expansion, there could be many other uses as well.

 

[Roland]

....could that be that pesky 'category completion' term that Mr. Planas is always using?

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rainman


That's great if you are an orange belt because it is very basic and easy to understand. There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon. Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed. Upon impact is where they are felt along with breath and projection the culmination of which is deemed focus.

Centrifugal force is good to look at from the ram (second tek) on because it aids in keeping the arms relaxed and aids in the whip that can be included if one decides to keep the movements in the form continueus.

Very basic and easy to understand.....hmmmm. You state that "There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon."

So basically what you are saying is that all three power principles must work together all the time? What about Obscure Wing? That is strictly a "Torque" technique. Can you show me where Marriage with Gravity is used in the base of that technique? Hmmmmm.:shrug:

Secondly, "Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed." I really think you need to look over that sentence. Where is the Marriage with Gravity and the Back Up Mass in the "Block and Punch" set following Five Swords? You are not using your weight in line vertically (Marriage with Gravity) at any time during that set of moves nor are you rotating to the standard Forward Bow to genrate force horizontally in line with your strike (Back Up Mass), so how can you honestly say all three power principles are used simultaneously! Also what is the "primary power principle" in the wide kneel/ middle knuckle strike? Marriage with Gravity! Where do you use you body weight in line horizontally (back up mass ) anywhere in that set of movements?

Just my observations, but hey! I wasn't there so I must be wrong...LOL




:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Roland

....could that be that pesky 'category completion' term that Mr. Planas is always using?

Hey but I am dead wrong!...LOL. Remember I wasn't there...LOL:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
"What about Obscure Wing? That is strictly a "Torque" technique. Can you show me where Marriage with Gravity is used in the base of that technique."
[/B]

Lance, are you saying there is NO Marriage of Gravity in Obscure Wing?

I agree that there is rotational torque with the swordhand but when you "settle" into your stance you utilize marriage of gravity at that time.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

3631,

Obscure Wing. Are you making contact with your elbow or your whole body? Think about adding directional harmony body momentum, and gravitational marriage on the first strike. Additionally look at book V page 105 under the power section. As Obcure Wing is a combination of basic moves Power works the same way... by combination.



:asian:

 

[warriorsage]

Thanks for the info guys. Mr. C, I think I undestand what you were saying, but the part that was specifically pointed out as being flawed was the raking downward middle knuckle. It ws pointed out (by someone on KenpoNet) that the middle knuckle is not structurally sound when used in this fashion. Any thoughts?

Also, in regard to Dan Farmers post: I've read MANY times that SGM Parker taught several things that weren't correct, or better stated, weren't optimally functional, to check if his students were doing any personal exploration of the material. I heard it was also done to see who the students were training under. Now, these are just things I've heard and read, but they have come from some people close to the source. I think Ed Jr even mentioned something about this either in The Journey or in the BlackBelt magazine ad from a year or so back.

Any thoughts?

 

[Goldendragon7]

I wouldn't put it past him to do such a thing....... I never personally observed it. However, I have watched him see something that was not correct and not correct it at that time.

As to actually teach it wrong..... I believe that he might have done that early on in his career but as for the last 10 years of his life, no. Too much to teach correct to mess with off track stuff.

:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Lance, are you saying there is NO Marriage of Gravity in Obscure Wing?

I agree that there is rotational torque with the swordhand but when you "settle" into your stance you utilize marriage of gravity at that time.

:asian:

NO. What I am saying is the "MAIN" power principle...the "power principle" that get's the job done primarily is TORQUE.:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rainman

3631,

Obscure Wing. Are you making contact with your elbow or your whole body? Think about adding directional harmony body momentum, and gravitational marriage on the first strike. Additionally look at book V page 105 under the power section. As Obcure Wing is a combination of basic moves Power works the same way... by combination.



:asian:

If you are hitting with you whole body you must be OUT of alignment.

Think about it for a minute. Where do you step first? 3 o'clock correct? In which direction does your elbow strike? 6 o'clock, correct? That is the way I was taught it, my original instructor was taught it, Lee Wedlake was taught, Huk Planas was taught, Frank Trejo was taught...etc, etc, etc.

So how can you honestly say that there is Back Up Mass being used as the underlying power principle of the technique? Wait! Maybe my definition of Back Up Mass is incorrect. Isn't Back Up Mass using your body weight IN-LINE with your strike? Where do you see that in Obscure Wing?

Does anyone else have a different definition of Back Up Mass? I must have heard incorrectly in that class:shrug:

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I have to say that I am doing Obscure Wing wrong then. I like to step into my opponent. If I step to 3:00 then my back up mass is going that way into my stance. Why would I send my weapon to 6:00 in a direction that isn't in harmony with my weight?

You're a big guy so maybe you can get away with that because of those huge pythons but me, I need all the force I can get. I want to use what little weight I have to fold that guy in half with my first strike. So I go into him. (We'll say he's standing at my 4:30)

Huk was pointing out that Shotokan guys tend to punch in one direction while sending their body weight in another direction. Or like in tournament punches, you can score while backing up but on the street if you punch while backing up you won't get much so I adapted this concept for this technique.

As usual, I'm doing it wrong. But I don't care! Ah ha ha ha!

 

[Rainman]

Even if you step to 3 your forearm and hand are behind the elbow strike and that is still considered back up mass. Your understanding is not wrong but, expand your usage so you are doing many things at once. Empty your cup it is difficult to fill something that is full.

:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I have to say that I am doing Obscure Wing wrong then. I like to step into my opponent. If I step to 3:00 then my back up mass is going that way into my stance. Why would I send my weapon to 6:00 in a direction that isn't in harmony with my weight?

You're a big guy so maybe you can get away with that because of those huge pythons but me, I need all the force I can get. I want to use what little weight I have to fold that guy in half with my first strike. So I go into him. (We'll say he's standing at my 4:30)

Huk was pointing out that Shotokan guys tend to punch in one direction while sending their body weight in another direction. Or like in tournament punches, you can score while backing up but on the street if you punch while backing up you won't get much so I adapted this concept for this technique.

As usual, I'm doing it wrong. But I don't care! Ah ha ha ha!

It's not wrong...per se. However if we are talking about the way it is written and the way it is taught to the beginner then , yes, it is wrong. I am just pointing out that as written, stepping back is wrong. Practically...there is nothing that says you can't step back, however I feel you lose the underlying power principle by doing so.
My question know is, why are you stepping back? You say to gain directional harmony, which is not wrong, but you know as well as I do that we do certain things in the system to show different things, (like the middleknuckle strike in Short 2 :rofl: ).
Also...I think you've been hit in the solar plexus, right Gou? Did it take allot of force to bend you over and knock the wind out of you? My point is you're delivering a hard weapon to a soft target, why do you need to generate all this force when all you need is just enough.
Another thing is that the "extension" to that technique has you shoot the right leg back to 7:30 to buckle your opponent after the hammerfist to the groin, so why would you want to shorten your travel on the leg? also what if you can't step back? What then eh?
Besides Bonehead said that the beginning techniques are just half techniques (meaning they have not been completed at that belt level, there is more to them). but then again I was not there...:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rainman

Even if you step to 3 your forearm and hand are behind the elbow strike and that is still considered back up mass. Your understanding is not wrong but, expand your usage so you are doing many things at once. Empty your cup it is difficult to fill something that is full.

:asian:

Your forearm and hand constitute the same weight as that of you entire body? Hmmmmmm...

"Using your weight in line with your strike on a horizontal plane" is the definition I have always heard from the Kenpo seniors, including Mr. Parker, not use your forearm and hand in line with you strike.

What does it say in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo say?
:asian: