Dojo Photo's/role models

[Juany118]

In my book he did break the law. That's why he was arrested, found guilty by a jury trial and sentenced by a judge. SCOTUS can and will do what they want. And did exactly that, in this case.

The entire point of Judicial Review is to decide if the Jury was correct. In Ali's case they weren't, here is why. When he acted he did so claiming conscientious objector status. The Federal Government, if they deny it, has an obligation to explain why they denied such status. The Government failed to do so in his case, they just said "No."

So the SCOTUS said "The draft board has a duty to explan why they denied it and they didn't. As such we have no reason to doubt that Ali made this decision based on a religious belief similar to many other faiths we allow to claim such status"

It's kinda like a cop needing to justify a traffic stop that leads to an arrest.

Thing is this was a compromise decision. Originally a majority was going to uphold the conviction. Justice Harlan, who was actually going to write the majority opinion, actually bothered to read Black Muslim Doctrine before doing so and changed his mind and actually then came to the conclusion that the Justice Department had misrepresented the religious beliefs of Ali (not surprising with how the Government looked at Black Separatist groups at the time). Justice Stewart then proposed the compromise decision so the Government could save some face.

 

[Tames D]

Interesting. Thank you. To my knowledge Ali's boxing title wasn't re-instated. You think it would have been.

 

[Juany118]

Interesting. Thank you. To my knowledge Ali's boxing title wasn't re-instated. You think it would have been.

Then it may also interest you to know that the NY boxing Commission stripped it BEFORE any criminal charges were filed so, at least imo, it has little to do with whether what he did was or wasn't a criminal act. As a private organization they can simply say "he violated our code of conduct". /Shrug.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But will there ever come a point where we as people can forgive these atheletes for their shortcomings? I mean damn we are all people and none of us are perfect. I am sure we all have something we aren't proud of.

As I've said before, there is redemption. Those who are working hard to clean up, currently serving as good role models, and who can be used to show that a life can be turned around - those are the ones we can forgive and point to.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the common practice in many martial arts schools to post pictures of the founder of the art or prominent teachers in the schools lineage. Some of those individuals many not have been particularly good role models for anything other than their martial skill. Lots of BJJ schools have a picture of Helio Gracie on the wall. While I'm grateful for his contributions to the art I study, I wouldn't want any student of mine to emulate his personal life or attitudes.

Then again, most students don't know much about the personal histories of the teachers pictured on their dojo walls. If they're told anything, it's usually a sanitized hagiography. So the odds of them being inspired by the bad behaviors of those individuals are pretty small.

 

[Tez3]

We have our very own role model and hero.
Henry E Harden VC - victoriacross

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the common practice in many martial arts schools to post pictures of the founder of the art or prominent teachers in the schools lineage. Some of those individuals many not have been particularly good role models for anything other than their martial skill. Lots of BJJ schools have a picture of Helio Gracie on the wall. While I'm grateful for his contributions to the art I study, I wouldn't want any student of mine to emulate his personal life or attitudes.

Then again, most students don't know much about the personal histories of the teachers pictured on their dojo walls. If they're told anything, it's usually a sanitized hagiography. So the odds of them being inspired by the bad behaviors of those individuals are pretty small.

This is a good point. If there's something objectionable about the person whose picture is on the wall, that should probably be discussed. It's a good opportunity to create another lesson out of that person's shortcomings.

 

[Tames D]

Then it may also interest you to know that the NY boxing Commission stripped it BEFORE any criminal charges were filed so, at least imo, it has little to do with whether what he did was or wasn't a criminal act. As a private organization they can simply say "he violated our code of conduct". /Shrug.

In other words, they didn't feel he was a good role model.

 

[Juany118]

In other words, they didn't feel he was a good role model.

Yes. However look at the era "dang hippie commies" protesting the war and promoting "free love" etc.

For me I try to say people are only "bad" role models if I can point to objective stuff. Since the SCOTUS in a lot more words said he was a "valid" conscientious objector, that makes it okay for me. I served in the Army, part of that was defending the First Amendment, just as it is now as a LEO. The idea of conscientious objection is founded in that Amendment. So even if I disagree with their beliefs I will defend their right to exercise said belief so long as the courts find said exercising lawful, which the SCOTUS did.

 

[Juany118]

We have our very own role model and hero.
Henry E Harden VC - victoriacross

I think this guy has to be on the wall of some dojo in the UK, even if it's HEMA...

Jack Churchill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tames D]

Yes. However look at the era "dang hippie commies" protesting the war and promoting "free love" etc.

I'm curious how many of these "type" of Draftee's were granted the same condition as Ali?
Or did being a short hair, Heavyweight Champion of the World, with money and fame, perhaps have some influence with SCOTUS?

 

[Juany118]

I'm curious how many of these "type" of Draftee's were granted the same condition as Ali?
Or did being a short hair, Heavyweight Champion of the World, with money and fame, perhaps have some influence with SCOTUS?

Well I would say most didn't point to their Religious beliefs. NOI was relatively new at the time, the Justice who changed his mind only did so after a clerk gave him a pamphlet on the Religion to read. The Judge actually intended to use it to undermine Ali's position, assuming the Government gave a proper representation in Court but when he read it was like "wtf?"

Most who tried to "dodge" the draft were not using their faith. They weren't Quakers or Menonites etc, they simply didn't want to fight because they were against that specific War. That is not a Constitutionally protected act.

I will admit however, that unlike potential others of little known Faiths at the time, Ali had something they didn't, not fame or short hair...until the Justice read the pamphlet he was actually going to go to jail. What made the difference was, yes, money, he had the cash to go all the way to SCOTUS where PURE luck kicked in and a Judge finally bothered to read up on a modern Religion. If not for that one Clerk handing that one Judge the Pamphlet, even the money would not have mattered.

So I guess the question is this. Should we say "money got him off" or should we say "money finally put him in a place where someone bothered to learn about his Religious convictions?". If the later isn't he real problem not with Ali but the Government for dismissing his Religion while protecting those I mentioned, among others?

Note I am not a very religious guy but I will admit to being very protective of the First Amendment. Probably comes from growing up looking at a statue of a Quaker on the top of City Hall (Philadelphia).

 

[Tez3]

I think this guy has to be on the wall of some dojo in the UK, even if it's HEMA...

Jack Churchill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's a plaque on the outside of our dojo which is in the barracks on the road sign in the link. It was put there by the Army. All around us there are reminders of heroes, the barracks around us are named after First World War battles, schools are named after great soldiers, one of the army housing estate is named after Falklands War battles. The Garrison HQ is called Baden-Powell House. We have regiments here that are hundreds of years old and their battle honours are sights to behold.
We had track suits made with the club and the regiment that sponsor us on and also two gold starts which represent the two students we lost in Afghanistan.
Our kids as well as our students need never look further than their families and fellow soldiers for role models.
In the nearby castle, Richmond built in the 11th century, there are names scratched on the walls of First World War prisoners who were conscientious objectors during the First World War, they didn't have any religious reasons but just objectors so were imprisoned there during the war. It must have been very hard for them then.

 

[Juany118]

There's a plaque on the outside of our dojo which is in the barracks on the road sign in the link. It was put there by the Army. All around us there are reminders of heroes, the barracks around us are named after First World War battles, schools are named after great soldiers, one of the army housing estate is named after Falklands War battles. The Garrison HQ is called Baden-Powell House. We have regiments here that are hundreds of years old and their battle honours are sights to behold.
We had track suits made with the club and the regiment that sponsor us on and also two gold starts which represent the two students we lost in Afghanistan.
Our kids as well as our students need never look further than their families and fellow soldiers for role models.
In the nearby castle, Richmond built in the 11th century, there are names scratched on the walls of First World War prisoners who were conscientious objectors during the First World War, they didn't have any religious reasons but just objectors so were imprisoned there during the war. It must have been very hard for them then.

It's funny how units do that. The National Guard Unit I eventually found myself in was called the Associators and always took as a point of pride that it was founded by Benjamin Franklin almost 30 years before the Declaration of Independence (1747). I once made a joke saying "doesn't that make us part of the British Army?" Since at that time Franklin was a Royalist. I apparently was the only one who got the joke.