Does One Prepare You Better Than The Other?

[MJS]

The following is just an opinion.

Mixed Martial Arts:

Everyone is willing to cross train.
The majority of the fighters are in excellent shape.
The fighters train with aliveness and resistance.
They are all used to contact.
They test their material on a regular basis.
If something doesn't work it is usually tossed.
Only high percentage moves are kept.
They are pretty much well rounded standing, striking and on the ground.
The usual thought of MMA is that its just a sport.
Its usually said that outside of the ring, they have no 'real world' training.


Traditional Martial Arts:

Cross training is at times frowned upon.
Many of the "masters" that we see, as well as some students, are out of shape.
At times, lack of resistance and aliveness.
Sparring, depending on who you talk to, is frowned upon.
The theory that "If my master did it and made it work, then it will work for me" is rampant.
Once a particular range is brought into play, they are lost. ie: the ground.
Often said that if the art worked thousands of years ago, it will work today, without any changes.


So, the other day, during some down time at work, I was surfing the web and was reading, with much interest, a debate between the above two camps...the TMAist and the MMAist. One person representing the MMA camp, said that MMA will suit the needs of a real world encounter better.

So, what are your thoughts on this? One thing that I will ask...PLEASE, lets keep this discussion civil. We have folks from many arts on here, and while everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, I ask that we all do our best to be civil to each other. Instead of calling someone a name because you disagree with them, debate their post, and prove your point as to why you feel the way you do about what was said.

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

So, to answer my own post.

I feel that MMA is a great asset to any TMA. I will never forget the first time I started to grapple. I was a brown belt in Kenpo. The guy I was working with offered to teach me some BJJ. So, the first lesson, he mounts me and asks how I would escape. Lets just say that I felt like I was swimming against the waves. At that point, I was hooked...lol, no pun intended and began my grappling adventure.

I've added many MMA oriented things to my Kenpo training, which has made MY Kenpo much better.

To say that one is better than the other...hmmm...I just don't think I can buy that. IMHO, I think that if a serious student of the arts, really wants to be the best they can possibly be, they need to humble themselves, come down off their high horse, and open their mind to the huge number of things that are out there. I feel that today, doing just one thing, without any reference to anything else, is setting yourself up for failure.

As easy as we can say a MMAist will get sliced and diced up by a guy with a blade, we could turn the tables and say a TMAist with no ground game may as well say goodbye to his 20yrs to training, because he'll be a fish out of water..just like I was, when on the ground.

If you're weak in a certain area, admit it, and find a way to improve on that, instead of saying, or denying that you don't need to.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Plenty of traditional schools train hard like the MMA schools.

A well condition fighter is going to beat an uncondition fighter regardless.

A person who has experience in using his style in a resistant setting is going to have the advantage on someone who does not train that way.

If you are avoiding one area of training and your weakness is exposed than you will get taken out.

Knowing how to deal with multi attackers,weapons,ground work and the chance that your opponent is bigger and stronger than you are things both schools of thought should be working on if they want to be sucessful in fighting in the real world.

You have to have endurance,skill,knowledge of how to apply your art effectively other than that both schools of thought are the same.

The same I mean that if both train correctly then they both achieve the same goal by different means.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I feel the same way.

Im a Kempo guy and I love my art. It has a lot of good things about it and its pretty well rounded in my opinion. But it also has some holes and weaknesses. Im not going to get into a kicking match with a TKD'er or a fist fight with a boxer but the fact that we are trained to use both equally will help me.

On the ground id be lost with out the little BJJ training I have. This is a big hole im SKK and Im going to improve it. I also plan to branch out and learn some capoeira and Ba Gua to give me some more to work with.

I like MMA I think its very effective and can be used on the street and in real worl situatons. I also think that its lack of weapons defense (as far as I know, I could be wrong) is a big problem.

B

 

[Tez3]

I suspect it's not the arts that make the difference it's the mindset of the person training. The people coming into MMA are the same type who train hard in TMAs. Whatever style they do, they will train seriously and hard, they will be prepared to hit hard and to be hit if necessary. I see the same 'type' in MMA as in full contact karate and kickboxing. I haven't seen other styles compete but I'm guessing any full contact style will be the same.
It's the way you study and train that makes the difference not which style you do. it's not good doing weapon defences it it's going to be namby pamby lol or any other defence tbh.
The MMA people I know have or still do study TMAs, along with weapons. A great many train with the likes of Karl Tanswell, John Kavanagh and Geoff Thompson for self defence as well as MMA.

 

[MJS]

I suspect it's not the arts that make the difference it's the mindset of the person training. The people coming into MMA are the same type who train hard in TMAs. Whatever style they do, they will train seriously and hard, they will be prepared to hit hard and to be hit if necessary. I see the same 'type' in MMA as in full contact karate and kickboxing. I haven't seen other styles compete but I'm guessing any full contact style will be the same.
It's the way you study and train that makes the difference not which style you do. it's not good doing weapon defences it it's going to be namby pamby lol or any other defence tbh.
The MMA people I know have or still do study TMAs, along with weapons. A great many train with the likes of Karl Tanswell, John Kavanagh and Geoff Thompson for self defence as well as MMA.

Great points! I agree with what you said when it comes to how you train. Yes, that IMHO makes a huge difference. Oh and for what its worth, I'd love to spend some time with the folks that you mentioned. Those are guys that have been around the block more than a few times. Man, imagine how supercharged your training would be if you spent a weekend with those guys!!

**off topic for a small moment. Out of curiosity, have you spent any time training with any of those you mentioned?**

 

[KempoGuy06]

I suspect it's not the arts that make the difference it's the mindset of the person training. The people coming into MMA are the same type who train hard in TMAs. Whatever style they do, they will train seriously and hard, they will be prepared to hit hard and to be hit if necessary. I see the same 'type' in MMA as in full contact karate and kickboxing. I haven't seen other styles compete but I'm guessing any full contact style will be the same.
It's the way you study and train that makes the difference not which style you do. it's not good doing weapon defences it it's going to be namby pamby lol or any other defence tbh.
The MMA people I know have or still do study TMAs, along with weapons. A great many train with the likes of Karl Tanswell, John Kavanagh and Geoff Thompson for self defence as well as MMA.

Thats a very good point. It can also go back to the whole arguement about some people only caring about the color around their waist. Wouldnt you agree?

Someone that trains only for the next level and the new material, in my opinion will be less of a martial artist than someone who trains for the passion and the real world application of the MA's. Though this really only applies to TMA's i guess.

B

 

[Tez3]

Great points! I agree with what you said when it comes to how you train. Yes, that IMHO makes a huge difference. Oh and for what its worth, I'd love to spend some time with the folks that you mentioned. Those are guys that have been around the block more than a few times. Man, imagine how supercharged your training would be if you spent a weekend with those guys!!

**off topic for a small moment. Out of curiosity, have you spent any time training with any of those you mentioned?**

I haven't but my instructor has though I nearly made John Kavanagh fall over with laughter at the airport lol! His username on a forum was 'moremojo' so I told him that I would make a big sign I'd hold up when meeting him at the airport that said 'MOREMOJO PLEASE!'. you can imagine the looks I got rofl. He's a really nice guy and can charm the proverbial birds (usually blondes) out of the trees as well as fight lol!
John has seminars in Ireland if you can ever make it, be a nice holiday as well! Karl trains Rosi Sexton of course as well as being her partner, they come across to America quite often when she fights but I'm not sure about seminars or training. Perhaps it would be worth inquiring to see if he and Rosi would have a seminar next time they are there? It would be worth it if a few of you go together.
My instructor is from the same 'school' as Geoff Thompson and we do MMA and self defence in the same mode.

 

[pete]

Mike - the question is a good one, but incomplete, as it does not as WHAT you'd be better prepared for...

My perspective is that TRADITIONAL Arts prepare one better for LIFE, enhancing that overall quality of life, appreciating the phenomena of the moment, and dealing with physical and emotional situations that threaten one's peace with thoughtful purpose rather than fear.

The experiences I speak of come through Internal Arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua, & Xingyi, which again through my experiences, keep thing alive and spontaneous... and by their rich history encourage cross-training.

But if the question means preparing you for a wrestling competition or boxing match... the answer would be different. If the question means preparing one for iminent danger, terrorist attack, or military combat... the answer would be different. If the question means preparing one for a job in security, body guarding, law enforcement... the answer would be different.

If the question means preparing you for LIFE, reducing Fear, reducing Stress, Improving Consciousness, Improving Wellness, and being able to deal with MOST types of likely street attacks to the best of your natural abilities... well, there's my answer~

Pete.

 

[Tez3]

There is no difference between traditional arts and mixed martial arts. Mixed martial arts is doing more than one art, a practice that has been going on so long it's traditional! Mixed martial arts doesn't contain anything new, the arts are all traditional, even competing in MMA isn't new as the ancient Greeks and Romans used to do it as well many others throughout history.
All martial arts properly taught and trained will prepare you for a good deal of lifes surprises. From being attacked to accepting winning and losing competitions gracefully. From thinking about others to ensuring you keep yourself as fit and healthy as you can.

 

[BrandonLucas]

There is no difference between traditional arts and mixed martial arts. Mixed martial arts is doing more than one art, a practice that has been going on so long it's traditional! Mixed martial arts doesn't contain anything new, the arts are all traditional, even competing in MMA isn't new as the ancient Greeks and Romans used to do it as well many others throughout history.
All martial arts properly taught and trained will prepare you for a good deal of lifes surprises. From being attacked to accepting winning and losing competitions gracefully. From thinking about others to ensuring you keep yourself as fit and healthy as you can.

That's the exact response I was going to put in. I think everyone should be active in MMA..not in the sport sense, but in the literal sense.

All it means is that 2 or more traditional arts are being practiced to "fill in the gaps" so to speak. I train in TKD, which is striking...I would love to train in any form of JJ or Judo, which prepares the student for ground combat.

I think that the OP has the literal term of mixed martial arts confused with the sport form of MMA...in which case, sport MMA is great for alive training and getting you into shape, but doesn't do as much for the student as literal MMA will.

And, of course, taking more than 1 traditional art is always a plus...the more knowledge, the better.

 

[Twin Fist]

Pete has the right side of it.

It really is a matter what WHAT you want to be prepared for.

For Self Defense?
you need enough ground work to get back up

you need enough striking to put them down

For life?
For fitness?
too many variables

 

[Rich Parsons]

The following is just an opinion.

Mixed Martial Arts:

Everyone is willing to cross train.
The majority of the fighters are in excellent shape.
The fighters train with aliveness and resistance.
They are all used to contact.
They test their material on a regular basis.
If something doesn't work it is usually tossed.
Only high percentage moves are kept.
They are pretty much well rounded standing, striking and on the ground.
The usual thought of MMA is that its just a sport.
Its usually said that outside of the ring, they have no 'real world' training.


Traditional Martial Arts:

Cross training is at times frowned upon.
Many of the "masters" that we see, as well as some students, are out of shape.
At times, lack of resistance and aliveness.
Sparring, depending on who you talk to, is frowned upon.
The theory that "If my master did it and made it work, then it will work for me" is rampant.
Once a particular range is brought into play, they are lost. ie: the ground.
Often said that if the art worked thousands of years ago, it will work today, without any changes.


So, the other day, during some down time at work, I was surfing the web and was reading, with much interest, a debate between the above two camps...the TMAist and the MMAist. One person representing the MMA camp, said that MMA will suit the needs of a real world encounter better.

So, what are your thoughts on this? One thing that I will ask...PLEASE, lets keep this discussion civil. We have folks from many arts on here, and while everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, I ask that we all do our best to be civil to each other. Instead of calling someone a name because you disagree with them, debate their post, and prove your point as to why you feel the way you do about what was said.

Thanks.

As with many things it all depends. And no that is not the PC answer.

For MMA, yes it is alive and resistant and people are in shape, but, as with most sparring people start to fall into what is legal for the rules and concentrating on that which might leave openings or remove moves that could permanently hurt someone, but are not allowed for the risk of injury.

For Traditional it has apsects depending upon art/style/culture of sparring or aliveness, but once again they end up with the concentration on what is allowed by the rules.


Being a Stick Jock I know it is 120% probable that I will end up with a Stick Duel where the two of us are squared off on the street. Come on it will happen, I have faith on this one.

Seriously though, every knife fight I was in, I never had a chance to pull my knife, and when I did have a chance it was either over, or one of both of us disengaged and created space to leave. For other weapons, I almost always ended up empty handed against their weapon of opportunity, so having training in it added some help.


Dealing with the stress of a live fight on TV is hard.

Dealing with the stress of a real fight in your face on the street is hard. But if you have had experience with this then it gives you an edge.

But almost always the prepared fight both have had a chnce to get ready, for the street it is almost always a surprise.



As to weight or shape, I think it is great that the elite within MMA are in such a shape and are gerat athelets. But from a personal perspective, I prefer to have studied something that does not require strength and physical attributes to do the techniques as I know some day I will get old(er) and have (more) injuries, and I need to be able to still defend myself.




So, for me what I have for myself works. But I also have personal expereince to back up my training. Yet, for others, it might not be enough they might be more out of shape and unable even to move, so they need to adjust and over come those deficiencies for self defense.


I respect the Traditional Systems for the preservation of history and for the apsects they try to teach not just create fighters.

I respect the MMA as they produce people who can roll and react and preach health and cardio and aliveness that some Traditional systems do not have.

 

[Phoenix44]

I think once you start using words like "all" and "everyone," it can't hold true.

I agree with Tez3: it's the individual that makes the most difference.

 

[jks9199]

I suspect it's not the arts that make the difference it's the mindset of the person training. The people coming into MMA are the same type who train hard in TMAs. Whatever style they do, they will train seriously and hard, they will be prepared to hit hard and to be hit if necessary. I see the same 'type' in MMA as in full contact karate and kickboxing. I haven't seen other styles compete but I'm guessing any full contact style will be the same.
It's the way you study and train that makes the difference not which style you do. it's not good doing weapon defences it it's going to be namby pamby lol or any other defence tbh.
The MMA people I know have or still do study TMAs, along with weapons. A great many train with the likes of Karl Tanswell, John Kavanagh and Geoff Thompson for self defence as well as MMA.

Great post.

Neither traditional martial arts nor MMA will inherently prepare you for real world self defense, the way many people practice them.

Each has strengths -- but neither are enough by themselves UNLESS they are trained with a mindset for real self defense. You can find this mindset and training approach in either -- or you can add it to your own training.

 

[myusername]

I don't believe that there is a one size fits all answer to this question. At the end of the day we all have different preferences to how we like to fight. Some like to grab and control, some like to punch, some like to slap, some like to kick and some like to bite and some like to do all of the above and more.

I don't think MMA has the monopoly on resistant training either as many martial arts are full contact and full resistance. Look at boxing, kickboxing, judo, jujutsu and certain karate styles etc.

I view MMA the same as any other martial art discipline and as for all martial arts I think if it works for you, it works.

I totally agree with the other posters who are suggesting that it is not so much the style but the mindset of the practitioner and the way that they train that makes the difference to how prepared they are for self defence.

 

[Ninebird8]

I respectfully disagree on the traditional comment made at the beginning: My Shaolin master use to make us fight (not spar) with our styles every day at full contact with him and the other seniors. When I moved from my Ying Jow style to the Wudan style, at one time on film I sparred my master for over 4 hours getting hit for real, just short of breaking everything so I could continue.....every Tuesday I spar a Kung fu brother who is also a 3rd degree dan in Aikido and a 2nd degree dan in Jujitsu besides his training in kung fu, and we hit for real for an hour and a half. My ying jow brother and I in Atlanta fight every time we see each other, in front of his students or mine, or in front of our Ying jow master, and the comment has been made that it looks like we hate each other. In our Yang tai chi as well, under Jeff Bolt, we use to do moving and stationary push hands with jing and silk reeling.

I also wrestled in high school and some in college and of course that was full contact. I do not believe MMA invented or propagated this. In fact, I believe only in America has this become a phenomena, due to point fighting, continuous fighting, and worries over lawsuits recently for contact though a waiver is signed. When I trained in Hong kong, it was never light contact. As well, my masters always told me to punch or kick at full speed to demonstrate a defense and responsive offensive movement, saying the student did not know the reality of it if it was not a real attack.

I respect greatly the MMA and UFC fighters, and their conditioning, but it is like, and I mean no offense here, Gracie fighters claiming they invented jujitsu. By its name, and historical record shows, the art was invented and propagated in Japan. MMA are not the first to cross train, and I would be really interested to know what MMA fighters practice once they retire and can no longer do what they do......Thai fighters are incredible fighters but only until a certain age until they are beaten down. To all the MMA fighters here, once you retire or age somewhat (like my age of 50, LOL), do you still attempt the intense body training, ground fighting, and other training necessary for those days?

I will say again, it is up to the individual martial artist, and his/her teacher, to care enough to learn to fight for real, self-defense, and be able to delineate between what is real and what is not. I cannot take the beatings I use to be able to in my Shaolin fighting days, but the residual is I can still take pain, train when others cannot, and enjoy the weekly fights with my classmates. However, I also enjoy the tai chi and the peaceful meditation...LOL!!

 

[Tez3]

I respectfully disagree on the traditional comment made at the beginning: My Shaolin master use to make us fight (not spar) with our styles every day at full contact with him and the other seniors. When I moved from my Ying Jow style to the Wudan style, at one time on film I sparred my master for over 4 hours getting hit for real, just short of breaking everything so I could continue.....every Tuesday I spar a Kung fu brother who is also a 3rd degree dan in Aikido and a 2nd degree dan in Jujitsu besides his training in kung fu, and we hit for real for an hour and a half. My ying jow brother and I in Atlanta fight every time we see each other, in front of his students or mine, or in front of our Ying jow master, and the comment has been made that it looks like we hate each other. In our Yang tai chi as well, under Jeff Bolt, we use to do moving and stationary push hands with jing and silk reeling.

I also wrestled in high school and some in college and of course that was full contact. I do not believe MMA invented or propagated this. In fact, I believe only in America has this become a phenomena, due to point fighting, continuous fighting, and worries over lawsuits recently for contact though a waiver is signed. When I trained in Hong kong, it was never light contact. As well, my masters always told me to punch or kick at full speed to demonstrate a defense and responsive offensive movement, saying the student did not know the reality of it if it was not a real attack.

I respect greatly the MMA and UFC fighters, and their conditioning, but it is like, and I mean no offense here, Gracie fighters claiming they invented jujitsu. By its name, and historical record shows, the art was invented and propagated in Japan. MMA are not the first to cross train, and I would be really interested to know what MMA fighters practice once they retire and can no longer do what they do......Thai fighters are incredible fighters but only until a certain age until they are beaten down. To all the MMA fighters here, once you retire or age somewhat (like my age of 50, LOL), do you still attempt the intense body training, ground fighting, and other training necessary for those days?

I will say again, it is up to the individual martial artist, and his/her teacher, to care enough to learn to fight for real, self-defense, and be able to delineate between what is real and what is not. I cannot take the beatings I use to be able to in my Shaolin fighting days, but the residual is I can still take pain, train when others cannot, and enjoy the weekly fights with my classmates. However, I also enjoy the tai chi and the peaceful meditation...LOL!!

Good points. the Gracies have never claimed they invented juijitsu, they've always said where it came from.

When you watch the UFC or any other competition bear in mind that there are only a few fighters on that show, please don't judge all MMAers by a few that happen to be high profile and can afford to be full time fighters, everyone else has a job and doesn't train the way they do. As I've said many times before on here, MMAers here come from TMAs, they continue to do those TMAs and MMA after they have finished competing. These fighters didn't spring up overnight and leap into MMA having done nothing else. I know of one UK fighter who comes from a CMA background, other from TKD and karate as well as MT and kickboxing.

As I also posted on this thread MMA is an old sport not a new one and people have always crossed trained. I wish people would stop comparing what they see on television with reality! The reality is that a lot of people train MMA because they want to, they won't be fighters in the UFC or any other high profile promotions they will however compete in various rules from amateur to pro on small local shows for pleasure. Only literally a handful if that will become household names in the same way as Bruce Lee, Chuck Morris etc have.

 

[MJS]

Mike - the question is a good one, but incomplete, as it does not as WHAT you'd be better prepared for...

My perspective is that TRADITIONAL Arts prepare one better for LIFE, enhancing that overall quality of life, appreciating the phenomena of the moment, and dealing with physical and emotional situations that threaten one's peace with thoughtful purpose rather than fear.

The experiences I speak of come through Internal Arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua, & Xingyi, which again through my experiences, keep thing alive and spontaneous... and by their rich history encourage cross-training.

But if the question means preparing you for a wrestling competition or boxing match... the answer would be different. If the question means preparing one for iminent danger, terrorist attack, or military combat... the answer would be different. If the question means preparing one for a job in security, body guarding, law enforcement... the answer would be different.

If the question means preparing you for LIFE, reducing Fear, reducing Stress, Improving Consciousness, Improving Wellness, and being able to deal with MOST types of likely street attacks to the best of your natural abilities... well, there's my answer~

Pete.

Hey Pete!! Nice to see you posting on the board. :ultracool Yes, depending on how the question is taken, the meaning for training, as you pointed out, can differ from person to person. Just for clarification, and I should've been more clear in my OP, the things that I listed were the common back and forth rants between the 2 groups. Of course, there are some that I agree with and some that I disagree with. For the sake of the discussion here though, I was looking to discuss each from a self defense point of view.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I haven't but my instructor has though I nearly made John Kavanagh fall over with laughter at the airport lol! His username on a forum was 'moremojo' so I told him that I would make a big sign I'd hold up when meeting him at the airport that said 'MOREMOJO PLEASE!'. you can imagine the looks I got rofl. He's a really nice guy and can charm the proverbial birds (usually blondes) out of the trees as well as fight lol!
John has seminars in Ireland if you can ever make it, be a nice holiday as well! Karl trains Rosi Sexton of course as well as being her partner, they come across to America quite often when she fights but I'm not sure about seminars or training. Perhaps it would be worth inquiring to see if he and Rosi would have a seminar next time they are there? It would be worth it if a few of you go together.
My instructor is from the same 'school' as Geoff Thompson and we do MMA and self defence in the same mode.

Cool!! Yes, that would be an excellent vacation. Get in some sight seeing as well as some good hard training.