Does karate need to evolve?

Oily Dragon

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I think MMA is a style and also a sport. I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?
I think it's ambiguous because any single MMA person I ever meet has a unique training history. There's no one set of arts. There are very common ones.

Sure a lot of MMA schools standardize on those, but I don't think they are always that comprehensive.

I asked a local MMA gym owner if he knew what Lei Tai was.

"Muay Thai?"

"Lei Tai.."

That was a funny conversation.
 

Oily Dragon

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Agreed. Maybe it's a group of styles - an umbrella term? Because it'd be fairly different on a BJJ/boxing base than on a catch wrestling/MT base. But the overall approach to training would be recognizable.
Syncretic is the word I think you're looking for. Basically, a word that describes the combination of different ideas/themes.

Though some individual styles are themselves syncretic. Hung Ga, Muay Thai are great examples....a LOT of styles were absorbed into those.
 

Steve

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I think it's ambiguous because any single MMA person I ever meet has a unique training history. There's no one set of arts. There are very common ones.

Sure a lot of MMA schools standardize on those, but I don't think they are always that comprehensive.

I asked a local MMA gym owner if he knew what Lei Tai was.

"Muay Thai?"

"Lei Tai.."

That was a funny conversation.
Yes and no. I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms. Time marches on.
 
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GojuTommy

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I think MMA is a style and also a sport. I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?
You can go to a gym that’s intended to prepare you compete in the mma ruleset and learn a mixture of styles, from a multitude of coaches specialized in those styles.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yes and no. I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms. Time marches on.
And then there's the fabulous Dominick Cruz, who actually learned the Firefighter style (which is most definitely a fighting style) after becoming a wrestling guru as a young man, lost a scholarship, became a UFC legend.

Here he is showing a very obvious Leopard Kung Fu strike, "through the sleeve". Now I don't know what all the styles are Dom trains, but I'm willing to bet real money he will learn anything, and that's what makes him an elite fighter.

I pity people who only learn a couple arts. If you're really into this stuff, why hold yourself back?

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GojuTommy

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In response to me saying some things in our training aren't necessarily focused on fighting skills, you said "...if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?"

If you didn't mean to say my statement was talking about not developing martial skill, what did you mean to say with those words?

If you're arguing about efficiency of training for combat, you'll get no argument from me. What I do isn't the most efficient path, for a number of reasons. The two main ones are priorities (I don't put self defense above all other concerns) and self-preservation (I believe the most efficient path to combat effectiveness is more brutal than I'm willing to participate in).
To me your comment sounded very much like the same thing I’ve heard/seen other people say to excuse training methodologies that don’t teach people how to fight in any circumstances.
 
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GojuTommy

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Yes and no. I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms. Time marches on.
I think there will be a time when distinctive new styles or arts will emerge from gyms that train for mma, and the funny part is in the end they will look like karate in their functionality.
 
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GojuTommy

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And then there's the fabulous Dominick Cruz, who actually learned the Firefighter style (which is most definitely a fighting style) after becoming a wrestling guru as a young man, lost a scholarship, became a UFC legend.

Here he is showing a very obvious Leopard Kung Fu strike, "through the sleeve". Now I don't know what all the styles are Dom trains, but I'm willing to bet real money he will learn anything, and that's what makes him an elite fighter.

I pity people who only learn a couple arts. If you're really into this stuff, why hold yourself back?

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There’s only so many different ways for the body to move, the biggest if not only real differences between styles is training methodologies, and what kinds of techniques they focus on.

But for many they limit themselves because there’s only so much time available and only so much money to pay for training. As much as I enjoyed training karate and my teenage fight nights by the river, i do have other interests and hobbies, some of which are rather expensive on their own unfortunately.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I’m very interested in this. Can you share some of the facts and data you’re thinking about?
Talking about specific tactics and training that we have lots of footage and experience in. Take a simple thing like dismounting from vehicle and spacing while moving. Watch some of what the Russian troops are doing lately. They dismount the second that they draw fire, then bunch up around the vehicle. This is attributed to a lack of infantry training. Watch them muzzle each other over and over. It makes me wonder what their friendly fire accident toll is at this point. We can go farther with this. Take a CQB training course for instance. Positioning and covering corners is basics. The way to stack for entry, etc. @drop bear has said he was a breacher if I remember correctly. He is likely more qualified to speak to the entry training. My point is that it takes quite some time for our military to train people to be able to execute this with precision. It takes time because it is not an intuitive pursuit. Our military excels as a result. You are correct that people don’t get good at things they don’t do. That is the reason why each armed conflict brings new lessons, and updates techniques. Often great discoveries have come from warfare, my favorite example is the stirrup.
 

Gerry Seymour

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To me your comment sounded very much like the same thing I’ve heard/seen other people say to excuse training methodologies that don’t teach people how to fight in any circumstances.
So, if someone includes anything not directed at fighting, you assume nothing they do is?
 
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GojuTommy

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So, if someone includes anything not directed at fighting, you assume nothing they do is?
I base my judgements on my experience.
People can train and ‘better themselves’ in many ways, but in my experience those who train in manners that promote the ability to fight don’t talk about self improvement, because they’re busy self improving and training.
 

Tez3

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How nice it would be if people did train in manners though.

Training in 'things' not directly connected to fighting would be things like strength and/or weight training, cardio, learning proper stretching for injury prevention, agility training ( like dogs do preferably 😂😂 seriously though it's good for groundwork). Going through fight tactics, some psychology is useful 😃. From a ref's point of view learn the rules of the style/class you are competing in, please!
 

drop bear

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Talking about specific tactics and training that we have lots of footage and experience in. Take a simple thing like dismounting from vehicle and spacing while moving. Watch some of what the Russian troops are doing lately. They dismount the second that they draw fire, then bunch up around the vehicle. This is attributed to a lack of infantry training. Watch them muzzle each other over and over. It makes me wonder what their friendly fire accident toll is at this point. We can go farther with this. Take a CQB training course for instance. Positioning and covering corners is basics. The way to stack for entry, etc. @drop bear has said he was a breacher if I remember correctly. He is likely more qualified to speak to the entry training. My point is that it takes quite some time for our military to train people to be able to execute this with precision. It takes time because it is not an intuitive pursuit. Our military excels as a result. You are correct that people don’t get good at things they don’t do. That is the reason why each armed conflict brings new lessons, and updates techniques. Often great discoveries have come from warfare, my favorite example is the stirrup.

I am not a gun guy. Just so you know.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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That's not really true of shorter kata, like the traditional ones in Daito-ryu. They are short, and no longer than a simple throwing drill.
You are right. In the throwing art, a drill may be called as a form. Chinese wrestling has 24 forms. Actually there are 24 drills that's repeated left and right.

 
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Gerry Seymour

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I base my judgements on my experience.
People can train and ‘better themselves’ in many ways, but in my experience those who train in manners that promote the ability to fight don’t talk about self improvement, because they’re busy self improving and training.
So, again, you're saying they're mutually exclusive, which they are not. Adding balance training that goes beyond what's useful for combat doesn't inherently prevent someone from developing fighting skills. Could they develop those skills faster if they were the highest priority? Yes. But it's not binary - they can do something less well and still do that thing.
 
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GojuTommy

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So, again, you're saying they're mutually exclusive, which they are not. Adding balance training that goes beyond what's useful for combat doesn't inherently prevent someone from developing fighting skills. Could they develop those skills faster if they were the highest priority? Yes. But it's not binary - they can do something less well and still do that thing.
Again, someone claiming I stated things I’ve never said.

If a school wants to include a 20 minute mindfulness meditation period in their classes, idc, as long as they’re not saying something that’s untrue. Meditation can help with things like mental reaction time, but it needs to be clear that it’s like hundredths of a second, and it won’t make you physically react faster or some how make time slow down for you.

Idc if someone does stuff in class for ‘self improvement’ but if that’s the whole point and goal of your class, don’t call yourself a martial arts instructor, you’re a life coach, don’t put the words self defense on your website or signage.

Schools that teach people to fight can teach things the count as self improvement, but I don’t see them advertising that often, and in my experience the people who talk about how their style is about self improvement, can’t fight.
 
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GojuTommy

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I am aware but you did serve in the military didn’t you? That makes you qualified to speak to the topic. You have training from some of the world‘s best.
Serving in the military doesn’t qualify someone to speak about guns.
Do you believe a naval engineer is qualified to discuss gun fighting? Or an air force cook?
My experience I’ve trained roughly 200 sailors in basic marksmanship and safe fire arms handling, and I’m not qualified to authoritatively speak on gun fighting(unless we’re talking about the real big guns)
 

Gerry Seymour

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Again, someone claiming I stated things I’ve never said.
You just did. Reread what I quoted.
If a school wants to include a 20 minute mindfulness meditation period in their classes, idc, as long as they’re not saying something that’s untrue. Meditation can help with things like mental reaction time, but it needs to be clear that it’s like hundredths of a second, and it won’t make you physically react faster or some how make time slow down for you.
None of which has any bearing on the discussion at hand.
Idc if someone does stuff in class for ‘self improvement’ but if that’s the whole point and goal of your class, don’t call yourself a martial arts instructor, you’re a life coach, don’t put the words self defense on your website or signage.
Again, not relevant to the discussion at hand.
Schools that teach people to fight can teach things the count as self improvement, but I don’t see them advertising that often, and in my experience the people who talk about how their style is about self improvement, can’t fight.
Which would have been a more reasonable statement to make in your original response to my comment.
 

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