Does Form Training Have Combative Benefits?

[ST1Doppelganger]

I'm starting this thread since the value of form training came up in another TMA thread and I don't want to derail the original thread topic by focusing on this topic.

The main question is do you feel that training traditional martial arts forms offer any advantages when it comes to combative training other then the obvious cardio and strength building side effects of form training?

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

The way I look at TMA forms is that they hold combative value by being encyclopedias of techniques or movements that teach you how to flow from one technique to another.

Of course you can take each separate technique or combo and drill them individually to become more proficient at understanding how to apply them. Thats very beneficial but in my opinion one of the most beneficial thing about form training is that that forms make you drill techniques or movements that you might neglect due to them not being one of your preferred ones.

I will say that allot of TMA instructors over emphasize form training and forget to emphasize on how to deconstruct the form in to separate techniques or movements that can be applied against different attack scenarios.

 

[Flying Crane]

yes, of course forms training is beneficial, IF properly taught, properly understood, properly trained, and their place in training as ONE TOOL OF MANY is properly acknowledged. In my opinion, a lot of people lack this proper understanding of forms and their purpose and place and benefits. For those people, forms training is not terribly useful.

You don't have to like forms, and you don't have to train forms. You can be a very skilled fighter, you can defend yourself quite nicely, without ever training forms. That's fine.

But for those who embrace forms, yes they are useful and beneficial.

 

[hoshin1600]

what good timing for this thread! i just read a PM from a very disgruntled person telling me off about how "my" kata is pretty much useless. these are some of my thoughts on kata.
not all kata are created equal. i believe some are catalogs of technique others are methods of learning combat principals. others like SANCHIN kata are foundational kata. sanchin is one of those rare kata that totally encompass the core of the style. without it there would be no style. it teaches the practitioner body mechanics and structural integrity. how to develop power in striking. how to recieve power from your opponent. within the kata is movment and you learn how to move while maintaining your center as well as maintaining that center when being hit, pulled, pushed, grappled with and being able to respond with a powerfull strike while all this is happening. sanchin teaches a fighting methodology and combat therory. if you analize parts of the kata like hand postions and over all posture you find it prescibes a very close range combative system. the body position in the kata is square to the opponent not angled or bladed. this implies this close combat methology. you can blade your body when there is distance but as you get closer to your opponent you must become more square to him or he will easily take your back. you center of gravity must sink and become rooted. strikes must be delivered while grasping and controlling the opponents body at the same time. the arms are held in tight to the body to maintain a few inches between you and your opponent that allow short powerfull close range strikes then pull back to that position to cover much like a boxer. i could keep going but a picture or vid is worth a 1000 words ten thousand in this case.
infighthingradialulna - YouTube

strikinginfightingzones - YouTube

kata is a language of movement. the problem is that many people dont understand the language and only hear gibberish. in other cases its a dead language and the kata is only practiced with no real understanding of why and how. sometimes kata is like archaeology you get to dig in the dirt and find all kinds of great nuggets of knowledge. where one person sees treasures others only see rocks and dirt. there can be a creative process to this that can be very rewarding. the key is you have to know what you are looking for. most people dont know what real combat looks or feels like so how would they know if their kata is refective of combat or is usefull. for most people kata, combat, martial arts and such is nothing more then an exersize of mental masturbation. they do not know the true impact that combat can have. and in truth they are probably better off not knowing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I learn a form, I make sure that I can learn it will and be able to perform according to my teacher's standard. I then record it on video and never train that form again. Many years later if I need to teach that form to my students, I will watch my own video before my teaching. Until then, I will tear that form apart, take all detail information, understand all application, and re-construct it the way I like. I then come up with as many "combo drills" as I want and I only train those "combo drills" and never touch my form again.

A form is like a book. For example, If my book contain just a simple sentence such as, "This is a book."

- I first learned 4 words, This, is, a, book.
- I then learn the grammar subject, verb, article, object.

I then create as many similar sentences as I need such as:

- That is a book.
- This was a book.
- This is not a book.
- This is a pen.
- ...

If a form contains just 2 moves such as "groin kick, face punch". During training, I would train

- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- foot sweep, uppercut,
- ...

As long as my new combo fits into the principle, "kick low, punch high", I'll train all combinations.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

When I learn a form, I make sure that I can learn it will and be able to perform according to my teacher's standard. I then record it on video and never train that form again. Many years later if I need to teach that form to my students, I will watch my own video before my teaching. Until then, I will tear that form apart, take all detail information, understand all application, and re-construct it the way I like. I then come up with as many "combo drills" as I want and I only train those "combo drills" and never touch my form again.

A form is like a book. For example, If my book contain just a simple sentence such as, "This is a book."

- I first learned 4 words, This, is, a, book.
- I then learn the grammar subject, verb, article, object.

I then create as many similar sentences as I need such as:

- That is a book.
- This was a book.
- This is not a book.
- This is a pen.
- ...

If a form contains just 2 moves such as "groin kick, face punch". During training, I would train

- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- foot sweep, uppercut,
- ...

As long as my new combo fits into the principle, "kick low, punch high", I'll train all combinations.

I like your deconstruction of the forms (i do the same thing) as well as the principle theory very nice.

I think the only thing i do different is have several of my core forms weapon and hand sets that i practice at least 3-4 times a week to keep it fresh and see if I can pick up any hidden concepts or subtle techniques in the forms.

I also have scripts and videos of many of the forms i do and am guilty of forgetting several of them but I can always go back to them when I feel like it.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I like training my forms, although in 7* there are quite a few that are superflous simply because each technique, and sometimes and entire line, is contained within another form. With 40 fist and around 40 weapon forms even my teacher admits that keeping on top of the final 10 he learned is a bit of a pain. In 7 Star Praying Mantis chaining techniques is very important and being aware of the fight and having the ability to change, chain and move from high to low very quickly are a few of its key principles. Form training in addition to partner drills really helps with this.

Once I have a form down reasonably well I don't spend an awful amount of time practising it - a couple of times a day is more than enough IMO - however I use them daily to construct new fight patterns that I drill on both sides (latterly these have been made out of around 7 techniques). The forms definitely help me memorize the techniques i have encountered thus far in the system.

If done correctly, they can be a good training tool however being able to do a form and being able to spar or effectively defend yourself in a self defence situation are entirely different things and we need to train in different ways to become good at each.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the only thing i do different is have several of my core forms weapon and hand sets that i practice at least 3-4 times a week to keep it fresh and see if I can pick up any hidden concepts or subtle techniques in the forms.

My forms all came from the striking art such as long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, white ape, Lohan, WC, Taiji, XingYi. After I have trained the grappling art Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling), I'm interested in the integration of both the striking art and the grappling art. I would like to use kick, punch to set up clinch, use clinch to set up throw and ground work. When I dig into my forms, I cannot find the information that I need such as:

How to use

- hook punch to set up hip throw,
- uppercut to set up over hook,
- upward separate hands to set up head lock,
- downward separate hands to set up double legs,
- circular dragging to set up single leg,
- ...

Since I can't obtain those information from my forms, I started to create my own combo drills such as:

- groin kick,
- face punch,
- arm wrap,
- neck control,
- slant cut,
- knee drop,
- elbow drop,
- arm bar,
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in 7* there are quite a few that are superflous simply because each technique, and sometimes and entire line, is contained within another form. With 40 fist and around 40 weapon forms ...

When I visited the praying mantis birth place YanTai and Tsingtao in Shandong, China, I visited a mantis school. In that school, the teacher taught many forms but not those important forms. I asked that teacher why. He said, "That's a very important form, you just don't teach that form to anybody." He then asked me how many praying mantis forms that I teach. I told him that I know 5 praying mantis forms but I only teach 3. He then said, "How long can you keep your students with just 3 forms?"

 

[Dinkydoo]

When I visited the praying mantis birth place YanTai and Tsingtao in Shandong, China, I visited a mantis school. In that school, the teacher taught many forms but not those important forms. I asked that teacher why. He said, "That a very important form, you just don't teach that form to anybody." He then asked me how many praying mantis forms that I teach. I told him that I know 5 praying mantis forms but I only teach 3. He then said, "How long can you keep your students with just 3 forms?"

Thats a valid point however I don't agree with it. Look at Foshan Wing Chun - the branch I've dabbled in only has 3 forms but its still a really popular style. Some teachers do admit to getting a little bored with it and they train in other styles too but thier base and true style is WC. I would have suggested to the Chinese teacher that students who you can't retain by only teaching the forms that are neccessary, are training in martial arts for the wrong reasons.

I get it though, for some, teaching martial arts is thier livlihood and in order to protect that some systems have a syllabus that has been artificially extended. We have a Chin Woo form in our syllabus and its definitely not a Mantis set. Its good at teaching you how to expell explosive energy and by itself it is ok, but it probably shouldnt be part of the 7 star syllabus - it just becomes something else we need to learn and memorize.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We have a Chin Woo form in our syllabus and its definitely not a Mantis set. Its good at teaching you how to expell explosive energy and by itself it is ok, but it probably shouldnt be part of the 7 star syllabus.

The long fist system that I have learned, we use a

- southern Chinese system dragon form, and
- Gong Li system Gong Li form,

to build up the foundation. The long fist system has it's own beginner level form Tantui. Since it can be very boring to train it, also since the students drop out rate are too high when Tantui is taught, it was not used.

IMO, if you only have 3 forms,

- beginner level form,
- intermediate level form,
- advance level form,

that should be enough.

You want to grow "tall". You don't want to grow "fat". Going through elementary school 5 times won't earn you a PhD degree. There are just too many forms that make you to grow "fat". To me, those "fat" forms are the forms that most teachers try to make money out of their students.

The long fist system can be taught for just 3 forms:

1. beginner level form - Tantui,
2. intermediate level form - Pao Chuan,
3. advance level form - Cha Chuan or Hwa Chuan.

The praying mantis system can also be taught for just 3 forms:

1. beginner level form - Bung Bu,
2. intermediate level form - Ran Ja,
3. advance level form - Cha Yao,

IMO, in order for TMA to be effective, we will need to find those "fat" forms" and throw it out of our system. With just 3 forms, it's much easier to work with.

 

[Reedone816]

Back then it always being told to do kata like shadowboxing, relate each form movement with the imaginary opponent act/react to our form.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

 

[TSD Bean]

I am of a similar mindset to Kung Fu Wang's earlier post comparing it to books, but I'm not sure I fully agree with the idea of cutting forms from your system. Forms are a powerful tool for teaching how to use certain moves properly with proper technique, and how to tie them together. Properly teaching a form requires you to both instruct the student on the proper motion and technique, but also breaking down what you're supposed to be recreating. What moves are you blocking? Are you grabbing the enemy, and if so, where? Additionally, the form teaches you how to use various combinations of techniques in sequences. This is crucial in a combat sense, as your ability to efficiently tie moves together will minimize opening for incoming attacks and improve your ability to successfully strike your enemy while expending as little excess energy as possible.

In this regard, more knowledge is better. By fully analyzing and comprehending more forms, the better you will be. Additionally, just because something is simple does not mean it is inferior. I, however, have not had any experience with Mantis system, and can't really be confident in weighing in on what you guys are debating. As I was taught, Tang Soo Do for ranks up to second degree black belt had 11 core forms (Kichi Hyung Il, Ee, and Som Bu, Pyung Ahn Cho, Ee, Som, Sa, and Oh Dan, Basai, Nai Hanchi Cho Dan, and Sip Su), and 3 Bong/Bo Staff forms, for a total of 14. You were never required to learn more than 1 form and 1 bong form for a given belt test, and since you tended to test for a belt once every three months, that game you a long time (relatively speaking) to learn those forms. After 2nd degree, we were left up to our own determination and research to find the additional forms (of which I only learned 3, one of which I have not completed yet, and a knife form). Dinkydoo said there are over 40 forms in his style, which to me sounds very excessive, even superfluous.

Having more information internalized is good, but have too much can risk diluting your ability to recall it. Understanding 40 forms (80 including the weapon forms!) to a level of mastery feels like it would beyond the ability of anyone who isn't devoting at least 3-4 hours a day just to forms. But, as I said, I'm not familiar with the style and can't put a real vote of confidence behind this opinion.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'm starting this thread since the value of form training came up in another TMA thread and I don't want to derail the original thread topic by focusing on this topic.

The main question is do you feel that training traditional martial arts forms offer any advantages when it comes to combative training other then the obvious cardio and strength building side effects of form training?

Yes… but you have to understand not only the structure of the form (and what it's trying to teach you… which is not "techniques"&#8230, as well as the contextual usage of the system in question. Both of those aspects, I feel, are lacking in many places…

 

[drop bear]

How else do you create a syllabus? Nowadays we have YouTube. But to rely on pictures would be pretty hard. So a stylised version of all your techniques could hep the repetition and learning.

By the way I hate kata. Bores me to tears.

 

[Argus]

Does practicing chords and scales benefit a pianist?

Form translates to both function and understanding. It is how you ingrain the art in your mind and body. And, it translates directly to application. Whenever I have a consistent problem with a certain movement or concept, I go back to my form, observe closely what I'm doing, and usually find the problem there. I fix or tweak it subtly, and find concrete results the next time I make it out to class.

The important thing is to actually utilize your forms as training methods. Don't just go through the motions once and a while. Take your time, think about what you are doing, pick one or two things out of a form, and practice and refine them. Ingrain them, and make them habit. And when you find a bad habit -- a circumstance that is consistently awkward and not working as well as it should for you, go back to your form, look closely at what you're doing, fix it, and reform that habit. The next time you need it, it will be there, and it will work better for you.

 

[donnaTKD]

what good timing for this thread! i just read a PM from a very disgruntled person telling me off about how "my" kata is pretty much useless. these are some of my thoughts on kata.
not all kata are created equal. i believe some are catalogs of technique others are methods of learning combat principals. others like SANCHIN kata are foundational kata. sanchin is one of those rare kata that totally encompass the core of the style. without it there would be no style. it teaches the practitioner body mechanics and structural integrity. how to develop power in striking. how to recieve power from your opponent. within the kata is movment and you learn how to move while maintaining your center as well as maintaining that center when being hit, pulled, pushed, grappled with and being able to respond with a powerfull strike while all this is happening. sanchin teaches a fighting methodology and combat therory. if you analize parts of the kata like hand postions and over all posture you find it prescibes a very close range combative system. the body position in the kata is square to the opponent not angled or bladed. this implies this close combat methology. you can blade your body when there is distance but as you get closer to your opponent you must become more square to him or he will easily take your back. you center of gravity must sink and become rooted. strikes must be delivered while grasping and controlling the opponents body at the same time. the arms are held in tight to the body to maintain a few inches between you and your opponent that allow short powerfull close range strikes then pull back to that position to cover much like a boxer. i could keep going but a picture or vid is worth a 1000 words ten thousand in this case.
infighthingradialulna - YouTube

strikinginfightingzones - YouTube

kata is a language of movement. the problem is that many people dont understand the language and only hear gibberish. in other cases its a dead language and the kata is only practiced with no real understanding of why and how. sometimes kata is like archaeology you get to dig in the dirt and find all kinds of great nuggets of knowledge. where one person sees treasures others only see rocks and dirt. there can be a creative process to this that can be very rewarding. the key is you have to know what you are looking for. most people dont know what real combat looks or feels like so how would they know if their kata is refective of combat or is usefull. for most people kata, combat, martial arts and such is nothing more then an exersize of mental masturbation. they do not know the true impact that combat can have. and in truth they are probably better off not knowing.

that video link was superb watching that is giving me options of things that can be done and this is where muay thai starts to evolve by taking ideas and techniques from other platforms and including them

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are a Judo student and assume Judo has 60 throws. You can learn 1 throw at a times until you have finished learning all 60 throws. In which order that you may learn your throw may not be important. One day you become a Judo instructor and you try to teach your Judo to the next generation. You now have 2 different teaching methods to apply:

1. Teach your students the way as you were taught, 1 throw at a time.
2. Create a 60 moves Judo solo form that contains all 60 Judo throws.

IMO, if you teach very young students, their memory are very good. You can teach that 60 moves Judo form to them without even explaining the application. After they have remembered very well the form, you then start to teach them the throw from the 1st move to the last move. Since they can remember the form, one day when they become Judo instructor, they will be able to pass down all 60 throws to the next generation without missing even 1 throw.

Form can be a vey good text book if you can take advantage on it.

 

[Hanzou]

I have yet to see any evidence that form practice translates into combative practice. Everytime I see a traditional stylist, their actual fighting style doesn't resemble their forms at all.

 

[drop bear]

I have yet to see any evidence that form practice translates into combative practice. Everytime I see a traditional stylist, their actual fighting style doesn't resemble their forms at all.

Dancing doesn't look like boxing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K6MCd4eyfb0

Sprawls don't look like takedown defence.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EXjP50SOwK4