Documented Voter Fraud in a Blue State

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
Try to be unbiased about this report...does its conclusions make you feel comfortable about e-voting machines?

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVreport.pdf

Don't you think that an investigation should take place where statistically impossible "problems" occured with the voting machines?
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
And yet no evidence or probable cause for an arrest..........
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,752
Reaction score
187
upnorthkyosa said:
That is just it. The numbers just don't add up. You can choose to blow it all off, but until you put the time into actually researching the raw data and crunching the numbers yourself, you really won't see it. Until you read the court cases, the congressional report, and the testimonials, you just won't see how important it really is.
Where are the indictments?

upnorthkyosa said:
Here is just one example...

The odds of just the Diebold voting machine errors in one state ALL coming out in favor of Bush are 93,000,000 to 1 for instance. That is just one state. Nationwide, across the country, every state had errors and they ALL favored Bush.
You don't even believe that number. It's a statistic with absolutely no basis for calculation. Some nut case with a claim of authority came up with that statistic using a "Extremely complex, and unexplainable algorithim after examining all the evidence" (See also: Made it up).

It strikes me as being very similar to the "irrefutable evidence of Gods" existence argument, whereby some expert gives a complicated explaination about how the possibility that god doesn't exist, based on the evidence, is 1 Trillion: 1, when this number has no basis in any kind of reality. It's pure fabrication. It's designed to give the appearance of absolute authority, without having a single ounce of validity.

upnorthkyosa said:
It is statistically impossible for that to be random chance and it deserved to be investigated. This is one of the things that was challenged about the election before Congress. There are 83 more equally impossible things in that report.
I think you put WAAAAY to much faith in self-proclaimed experts and their internet posts. What's an easier explaination....A) A vast, nation wide conspiracy involving not thousands, but tens of thousands of people, all working in unison to defraud the electorate or B) A couple of nut jobs using explainable events, and distorting them to support a wacked out theory.....Notice the question wasn't what you want to be true, but what more likely is. Apply Hanlon's razor. You're a smart person, north, don't lower yourself to this kind of poor reasoning.

upnorthkyosa said:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that something is rotten in Denmark.
Something stinks alright....but it's most likely the fishy, cooked up "evidence".

upnorthkyosa said:
You are too dismissive of the left. Truthout and Commondreams are leftwing biased, but they aren't kooky conspiracy theorists. Most of it is well researched. They've taken the numbers and they've shown the results. You just have to take the time to read it and understand the implications. There is a string of cases that stretches from the US supreme court to various state supreme courts, to the United States justice department and everyone is citing the same data. The bottom line is that if this is just a bunch of nutbar A.B.B people trying to stick it to Republicans, then thousands of people have purjured themselves.
What I am is a committed skeptic. I don't believe in vast conspiracies, Left or Right wing. Truthout and Commondreams are left wing biased, kooky conspiracy theorists, period. The "research" as a have pointed out time and time again, is nothing but distortion, supposition and innuendo. The evidence doesn't even point anywhere in the direction they claim, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it. They get by on the mountian of "non-evidence" they have that doesn't support anything. But they believe if they present the appearance of a HUGE amount of evidence, no one will take the time to look at it closely and see it's nothing but an illusion. It's the forest through the trees argument.

I have no doubt that a large number of people have perjured themselves in this case. I don't think it's a vast leftwing conspiracy as much as it is a mentality that encourages people to do anything to support their party. In addition, I think there are a large number of people who believe that this occurred because they have misinterpreted the evidence, and applied malicious motives to everything they see.

Again, Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to conspiracy, that which can more easily be explained by stupidity."


upnorthkyosa said:
It really doesn't matter that Bush won. It matters how he won. And a democrat could do the same thing next time. That door is now open and all of these "impossible" things are "fair game". If, in the end, nothing is done about any of this, we are really looking at some dirty future elections and possibly a compromised electoral system.
Oh come on, you don't really believe that either. No matter how Bush won, it would be called in to question. The leftists desire to defeat Bush at all costs created an environment where no matter who won, Bush was to be considered illegitimate. When you dealing with that kind of vitriole, it doesn't matter if he won fairly or not, as he is presumed to be illegitimate no matter what.

In this political environment, the truth is irrelavent. It's the perception that's important. That's why this evidence is presented. It doesn't prove anything, but the evidence isn't what's important, it's the editorial comment that's attached to it that you are intended to see. They will show you the evidence, and then TELL you what to think about it. Sorry, i'm not that stupid. I call BS.

The evidence does not support a charge of a vast attempt to steal the election, but that fact does not stop the effort to paint it so. So the theory goes, if you can't win the election, do everything you can do to make sure the winner doesn't benefit from the victory.

The left seems to be mastering the art of the Pyrrhic victory.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,752
Reaction score
187
upnorthkyosa said:
Try to be unbiased about this report...does its conclusions make you feel comfortable about e-voting machines?

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVreport.pdf

Don't you think that an investigation should take place where statistically impossible "problems" occured with the voting machines?
All your evidence seeks to make the leap of logic that because it is technically possible to alter these machines, then it MUST have happened. Your entire article is based on showing how it is "technically possible" that it could have happened (though, even in this, you have to take their word for it).

Again, applying some logical reasoning lets look at the facts. Here's what we have

"Could have technically happened"

Here's what they conclude through that

"Could have technically happened" = "DID happen"

One does not equal the other, especially in light of the fact that there is no further evidence that this occurred.

Basically, the situation breaks down like this. Any electronic equipment is subject to failure. Infallible electronic equipment is not POSSIBLE. Therefore, faulty electronic voting machines are evidence of nothing more than the fact that it is possible electronic voting is fallible.

Now, as to your question: "does its conclusions make you feel comfortable about e-voting machines?", let me remind you that it is an entirely seperate issue than the asinine accusation that Bush plotted to win the election. It bears studying this type of technology to see if we should even trust ANY kind of electronic voting system.

However, it then begs the question: How much more fallible (if it all) is electronic voting than hand ballots? I haven't heard that answered. These so called unbiased websites do nothing but give the illusion of research, without the substance and logical insight. When we have that answered, I can more intelligently answer your question.
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
The Libs couldnt win this one so they switched to Rove.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
A liberal billionaire stops spending money on 547 groups and starts buying voting machine companies. Suddenly, all "errors" point in favor of democrats. It's all "fair game" now. Will you be singing the same tune? We'll see in 2008 when Hillary wins! ;)
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
Tgace said:
And yet no evidence or probable cause for an arrest..........
There are lots of steps before the investigation gets to that point. Memory cards need to be seized and analyzed. Same with records. The Justice Dept seems to be "sluggish".

Part of the reason why the congressional challenge took place was to "force" their hand.

Sometimes, statistics are all that indicates a "problem" occured. It would be nice to at least investigate this and put it to rest, don't you think?
 

still learning

Senior Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
42
Hello, Will voter's fraud every end? Nope? As long as the bad guys can figure a way to cheat, people will.

Life is about being honest or crossing that line and become dishonest. It is easy to cross that line, and once you do it once the second time becomes easier, and so on.

In today's world it is begining to get harder to stay honest, truthful,trustworthy and loyal. To stay straight as an arrow can be done if one wants too. There are alot of peope who are straight as an arrows and we need to keep sharing and encouraging others to do the same......its hard work but rewarding to one's self............staying as straight as an arrow....Aloha
 

Sapper6

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Feb 4, 2004
Messages
940
Reaction score
31
Location
The land of misery
still learning said:
Hello, Will voter's fraud every end? Nope? As long as the bad guys can figure a way to cheat, people will.

it's not about good guys-bad guys. as long as there are elections, there will be voter fraud.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,752
Reaction score
187
upnorthkyosa said:
There are lots of steps before the investigation gets to that point. Memory cards need to be seized and analyzed. Same with records. The Justice Dept seems to be "sluggish".

Part of the reason why the congressional challenge took place was to "force" their hand.

Sometimes, statistics are all that indicates a "problem" occured. It would be nice to at least investigate this and put it to rest, don't you think?
Courts and law enforcement bodies are better investigators than a bunch of half-wit congressman with an ax to grind. A grand jury is arraigned when evidence REALLY exists and they want to force someone's hand. If congress is holding hearings, it's for political gain.

Further, the "statistics" are nothing but a three-card monty game. Those statistics are meaningless props, pulled out of thin air.

As for putting this to rest, could enough evidence exist to convince you and others, who are sure this occurred, that it did NOT occur? I doubt it.

The only reason you want an investigation is so you can saw "SEE?! They're investigating this, so that PROVES it must be true!". The point of convincing the government to even conduct an investigation is to MANUFACTURE proof in the form of the investigation itself, that the accusations are valid.

You don't investigate something that's so obviously BS that only a few nut case conspiracy theorists believe it.
 
Top