Documented Voter Fraud in a Blue State

modarnis

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For those who think only Republicans play dirty....


Originally published in The Hartford Courant 7/27/05

www.courant.com


Prenzina Holloway, a veteran Hartford campaigner whose support is often critical in vaulting candidates to office, committed absentee ballot fraud in last summer's primary election, the state Elections Enforcement Commission has found.

The commission fined Holloway $10,000, a rarely imposed penalty.


After a nearly yearlong investigation, the commission found that Holloway, a Democratic party activist and a paid employee for two campaigns in 2004, voted on behalf of, and forged the signature of, at least one voter. That voter told investigators he had never asked for an absentee ballot, let alone completed and signed one.

The voter, James Osborne, was a former tenant of Holloway's at 345 Sigourney St. Investigators concluded that he had not lived at that address for several years.

Forensic analysis of Holloway's own signature indicated that she signed Osborne's name, according to the commission's written findings.

"The commission has evidence to suggest that she did cast his ballot for him," said Jeffrey B. Garfield, the commission's executive director.

The commission also found evidence that Holloway, 68, was in the same room with at least two other voters as they filled out absentee ballots, a violation of state election law. Though Holloway contended she was there as a neutral poll worker, investigators say she showed those voters campaign materials for the candidates she was supporting.

Holloway, the mother of Hartford city Councilwoman Jo Winch, also handled absentee ballots after they had been completed, the commission found.

Holloway signed an agreement with the state acknowledging that it has enough evidence to find she committed absentee ballot fraud. She declined comment Tuesday. Her lawyer, Michael Harrington, is on vacation this week.

Absentee ballot abuse has been a persistent problem in Hartford politics for years and has resulted in the arrest of at least eight city politicians, including two state representatives, in the past decade.

The accusations against Holloway arose in part from a Courant investigation in which elderly and disabled residents in a nursing home and two apartment complexes described being assisted with their ballots in ways that appeared to violate election laws.

The charges against Holloway come one year after former state legislator Barnaby Horton paid a similar $10,000 civil penalty for findings of absentee ballot improprieties during his 2002 re-election campaign. Though Holloway's ballot transgressions are as serious, if not more serious, than Horton's, Holloway's case was not referred to the state's attorney's office for criminal prosecution, as Horton's was.

The difference between the two, Garfield said, is that Holloway may not have been as well-versed in elections law as Horton, whom she helped elect in 1998.

Horton, Garfield said, "was a legislator and lawyer, and an individual who had been a member of the legislative commission that wrote the election laws.

"Ms. Holloway is a campaign worker. The level of knowledge that she has is less than Barnaby had," he said.

Horton, charged with being in the room with an absentee voter who was considering a ballot with Horton's name on it, lied to the Elections Enforcement Commission at first, Garfield said. Holloway, with legal representation, cooperated with the probe by providing samples of her handwriting, he added.

Horton did not return calls for comment Tuesday.

Though she was a paid employee on the winning campaigns of state Sen. Eric Coleman and state Rep. Douglas McCrory, the findings of wrongdoing by Holloway do not raise questions about their victories. Nor do they raise questions about the primary victory of Hartford Democratic Registrar of Voters Shirley Surgeon, whom Holloway also supported in 2004.

"The pluralities were pretty significant in those campaigns," Garfield said.

"What it does say," he added, "is that absentee voting abuse continues to be a significant problem in Hartford."

The $10,000 fines to Holloway and Horton are the largest penalties the Elections Enforcement Commission has ever imposed for absentee ballot fraud.

Because she demonstrated financial hardship, Holloway will have to pay only $2,000 of the fine, the commission decided. The first $1,000 is due by August 1.

In its report, the commission warned Holloway that future transgressions would be referred for criminal prosecution.

The commission also banned Holloway from distributing absentee ballot applications and assisting with absentee ballots for two years. Horton is banned from those tasks for life.

Holloway's ban from absentee ballot work has practical effects for the Democratic party in Hartford. She is celebrated as an indefatigable workhorse when it comes to harvesting absentee ballot votes - a time-honored and legal strategy for winning elections.

"She's a very hard and diligent worker, and she gets out the vote," said Noel F. McGregor Jr. chairman of Hartford's Democratic party. Without her, "we have to pick up the slack," he said.

McGregor, who had not seen the commission's report on Holloway, said he was still dismayed to learn of its conclusions.

"We don't want to keep having these things happen," he said. "The voters lose confidence in us."

In part because of the prominence of Hartford's absentee ballot transgressions, the state legislature this year passed a law to reform the absentee balloting process.

The new law requires anyone assisting with an absentee ballot application to file a list with the town clerk detailing the names of all the people whom they assisted. Ballot applications that are sent to voters who did not ask for them must include a disclaimer that anyone who votes absentee despite being able to go to the polls in person will be subject to civil and criminal penalties.
 

michaeledward

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Thank you.

It's nice to know investigations can produce results. Let's see if this investigation produces an indictment of criminal activity. From the article, it seems this is only an accusation, so far.

Anyhow, do you think this revelation will overturn the 163,662 Kerry win?
 

Sapper6

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michaeledward said:
Thank you.

Anyhow, do you think this revelation will overturn the 163,662 Kerry win?

geez man, still a little bent huh...? :)

it's ok micheal, hillary will lead you to victory in '08. :partyon:
 

michaeledward

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Sapper6 said:
geez man, still a little bent huh...?

it's ok micheal, hillary will lead you to victory in '08.
Not at all ... Bush won, fair and ...

well Bush won.

And Hillary will not do anything of the sort if I have my way. (Remember, I voted Kucinich). Hillary makes a wonderful Senator for the Empire State.
 

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michaeledward said:
And Hillary will not do anything of the sort if I have my way. (Remember, I voted Kucinich). Hillary makes a wonderful Senator for the Empire State.

why is that? in all seriousness, i'm very interested to know the reasoning behind your stance. to me, you represent the "liberal left" in it's finest; that's just what i gather from here at the study. why is hillary a bad choice for the dems in 2008? is she too conservative? this might warrant a completely new thread, but a good discussion all together.
 

Tgace

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Ya see it only matters if you WIN. And then only when your opponent wins.
 

ginshun

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There were a lot of stories about voter fraud here in Wisconsin around election time. Its just that national news seemed not to care much about it. Hhmmmm... There were stories about Move-On.org people surrounding and harrassing people in Madison, and there were two or three counties around Millwaukee (all of which Kerry won) that had 98%-100% voter turnout. Which seems good at a glance, but 100%? Come on, that is just impossible.
 

sgtmac_46

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michaeledward said:
Not at all ... Bush won, fair and ...

well Bush won.

And Hillary will not do anything of the sort if I have my way. (Remember, I voted Kucinich). Hillary makes a wonderful Senator for the Empire State.
I guess next time the Democrats will have to give away more crack cocaine than they did this time, if they want to properly "win" the election. Since when did Marion Barry become head of the NAACP?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/18/mary.poppins.registers.to.vote/

As for Kucinich, why don't you just clone Lenin and skip the middle man.
 

michaeledward

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modarnis said:
obviously more than an accusation, she was fined. The article does indicate she was not referred for prosecution
Thank you.

I did read the article.
I saw that a fine was imposed by the Elections Commission.

And, shall we discuss your motives for posting this? Certainly, it is to demonstrate the cleanlieness of politics in Connecticut, right? How they can clean up their own.

Gee... didn't your Governor (R) Rowland demonstrate how clean political figures are in Connecticut. I mean, aside from taking tens of thousands of dollars from contractors with state contracts to upgrade the summer home. He was as clean as they can get.

Remove the moat in your own eye.
 

sgtmac_46

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michaeledward said:
Thank you.

I did read the article.
I saw that a fine was imposed by the Elections Commission.

And, shall we discuss your motives for posting this? Certainly, it is to demonstrate the cleanlieness of politics in Connecticut, right? How they can clean up their own.

Gee... didn't your Governor (R) Rowland demonstrate how clean political figures are in Connecticut. I mean, aside from taking tens of thousands of dollars from contractors with state contracts to upgrade the summer home. He was as clean as they can get.

Remove the moat in your own eye.
I'd say his motive was probably pretty similar to yours where, in another thread, you applauded an article insinuating Republican voter irregularities. You had this to say about anyone who questions the motives of someone who points out voter irregularities:

michaeledward said:
Thank you, Bob. As the article says, those who disagree with the premise, seem to immediately brand anyone asking the question a 'conspiracy theorist' (aka kook).
And that was just an article insinuating voter irregularities, with lots of supposition and insinuation and very little evidence. Now that we have hard evidence of several Democratic operatives out and out engaging in voter fraud, and being convicted of crimes for it, it's all irrelavent? I wouldn't call forging an absentee voter card (the one she got caught doing, no one knows how many weren't caught), or trading crack cocaine for voter registration (what was the plan once they got the fake voter registrations? Surely it didn't end there). I think those things being perpetrated, in addition to voter turnout in some places greater than the number of registered voters, and other frauds democrats were implicated in (and in some cases indicted for), I think these things need to be discussed.

Especially in light of the repeated asinine claims that Republicans "stole" the election (this, despite Democrats apparent, though failed, widespread attempts to REALLY steal the election), this kind of information needs to come to light.

You might want to take a look at that mote in your own, it's roughly the size of a log.
 

Makalakumu

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sgtmac_46 said:
Especially in light of the repeated asinine claims that Republicans "stole" the election (this, despite Democrats apparent, though failed, widespread attempts to REALLY steal the election), this kind of information needs to come to light.
And just how many of these blue state voter irregularities were taken before congress? How about when Clinton won? I'm sure this stuff "must" have occured then!

Or maybe the fact that some people are crying foul just might have to do with gigantic lists like this...

2004 Election fraud links



General sources



http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

http://www.votergate.tv/

http://www.truthout.org/

http://freepress.org/



Ohio Election Congressional Report



http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml

http://rawstory.com/images/pdfs/finalreport.pdf



Statistical Studies on the Exit Poll/Actual Results discrepancy



http://www.assassinationscience.com/The_Exit_Poll_Discrepancy.pdf

http://truthout.org/unexplainedexitpoll.pdf
http://www.freepress.org/images/departments/997.pdf
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/new_web/...wappendices.pdf
http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stor...2545298,00.html
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0412/S00167.htm
http://mediastudy.com/exitpoll.html
http://ustogether.org/election04/FloridaDataStats.htm




Estimated Vote Count in Ohio



http://www.freepress.org/images/departments/Vote_Count_Ohio.pdf



Computer Hacking of Electronic Voting



http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/Election%20Fraud/electionfraudlink.htm



Texas to Florida: White House-linked clandestine operation paid for "vote switching" software



http://onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html



80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold



There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html



The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/private_company.html

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html



The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886



Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031004Fitrakis/031004fitrakis.html



Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26

http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php



Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm

http://theindependent.com/stories/052700/new_hagel27.html



ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.

http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html



Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020evotestates/pfindex.html



Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm



Diebold is based in Ohio.

http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm



Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml



Jeff Dean was Senior Vice-President of General Election Systems when it was bought by Diebold. Even though he had been convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree, Jeff Dean was retained as a consultant by Diebold and was largely responsible for programming the optical scanning software now used in most of the United States.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf



Diebold consultant Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf



None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls in Ohio.

http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/10/26/loc_elexoh.html



California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it! (See the movie here: http://blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov.)

http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190



30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml



All -- not some -- but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeResearchStudiesBushIsOut.htm

http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html

http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=950

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm



The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7628725.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10544-2004Oct29.html



Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush -- have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeResearchStudiesBushIsOut.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/policy/story/0,10801,97614,00.html

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/tens_of_thousands.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/110904.html

http://uscountvotes.org/



Ohio Secretary of State James Blackwell’s illegal activities



http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=01-03-05&storyID=20433

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/1046

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121404Z.shtml

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=552



Articles Written on Voting Irregularities



Ten preliminary reasons why the Bush vote does not compute, and why Congress must investigate rather than certify the Electoral College



http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1065



The "Crime of November 2": The human side of how Bush stole Ohio, and why Congress must investigate rather than ratify the Electoral College



http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1067



Seven key reasons why the vote must be challenged at the electoral college



http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1066



Pollsters, Media Implicated in Vote Fraud



http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4934



TV Networks Officially Refuse to Release Exit Poll Raw Data Mainstream media finally displays true colors



http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1355&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0





Raw data for the distribution of voting machines



http://www.freepress.org/images/departments/machine_distribution.pdf



Ohio Supreme Court Cases



Moss v. Bush



http://freepress.org/images/departments/Election_Contest_2.pdf



Expert witness deposition



http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Baiman.pdf

http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Lange.pdf

http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Phillips.pdf



Moss v Moyer



http://freepress.org/images/departments/Election_Contest_3_(Moyer).pdf



Ohio’s Recount Discrepancy



http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4939



Articles on the Congressional Challenge



Conyers to Object to Ohio Electors, Requests Senate Allies



http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/123104W.shtml



Ohio Voter Claims



http://www.commoncause.org/atf/cf/%..._TO_NATION2.PDF
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_demo...testmt12804.pdf
http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp




Voter Fraud in Florida



http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm






So, excuse me if I am not jumping up and down and waving my fists when a couple of cases of "blue state" voter fraud jump up. From what I've seen in my research, the "right" hand is heavily weighted. Oh well, a vote is a vote, I guess, unless its for the other "guy".
 

sgtmac_46

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upnorthkyosa said:
So, excuse me if I am not jumping up and down and waving my fists when a couple of cases of "blue state" voter fraud jump up. From what I've seen in my research, the "right" hand is heavily weighted. Oh well, a vote is a vote, I guess, unless its for the other "guy".
Well, the difference is that the majority of your listed sites (such as commondreams and truthout) are merely political hack sites run by conspiracy theorists who are credible as the UFO crowd, and who distort reality and are HUGE on inference, and small on facts, and the issues brought up at the beginning of this thread are validated in a court of law.

It's the "illusion" of evidence, without much substance. It's created on inference and conspiracy theories. Much like your thread on the US arming Iraq, it's designed to "look like" a ton of evidence, by virtue of the shear amount of BS. You don't have a mountain of evidence, you have a mountain of innuendo with little credibility and far less validity.

Their best argument consists of "Well, it just seems fishy....the numbers don't add up" no coherent explaination of how the numbers add up, though i'm sure that if pressed, someone will throw out the most wild, convoluted and ultimately dense numerical "support" of absolutely nothing in hopes that it will appear to be a mountain of evidence. Much like the rest of the "evidence". The strategy is to assemble as much "evidence", which either a distortion of the truth or an outright lie, and throw it all together so that it appears to be an overwhelming unassailable amount of evidence. Funny thing is, none of it is what it is represented as when closely examined. In the light of detail the entire house of cards comes tumbling down.

Not so charges like the ones where NAACP representatives traded crack cocaine for voter registration. That's just the ones that got caught doing it, and I know that if three people are getting caught doing it, a whole lot more are getting away with it.

Yet we continue to hear absurd innuendo about vague right wing conspiracies.

Take the case about Diebold machines. You yourself like to reference Occam's razor from time to time. It applies here as no where else. There is no evidence that Diebold machines were biased toward either party. Defective, maybe, vast right wing conspiracy? Don't make me laugh.

Then we get the other asinine allegations of "widespread fraud"

Take this little nugget:

MIAMI, FL — With the knowledge that the minority vote will be crucial in the upcoming presidential election, Republican Party officials are urging blacks, Hispanics, and other minorities to make their presence felt at the polls on Wednesday, Nov. 3.

"Minority voters should make their unique voices heard, especially the African-American voting bloc, which is always a major factor in every election," said Florida Republican Party voter-drive organizer Mark Monreal, as he handed out flyers at a community center in the mostly black Miami neighborhood of South Farms. "That's why we put up hundreds of brightly colored banners featuring Martin Luther King Jr. and the 'Vote November 3' reminder. We needed to make sure they know when we want them at polling places."

"You can't walk through a black neighborhood here in Miami without seeing our 'Don't Forget Big Wednesday!' message up on a billboard, tacked to a phone booth, or taped to a bus shelter," Monreal added. "The Republican Party has spared no expense in this endeavor."


Interesting, no, and thrown around as proof positive of voter disenfanchisement. The ironic part is...it was originally a spoof piece by those masters of fake news, the Onion. It has since circulated the internet as "Real news".

Evidence of fraud does exist...take this for example:





After nine months of intense voter-registration efforts focused on Franklin County, the number of people signed up to cast ballots in the Nov. 2 election has surpassed U.S. Census estimates of those eligible.






There are about 815,000 Franklin County residents older than 18, according to the most recent census estimates, for 2003. As of yesterday, Franklin County Board of Elections officials counted more than 817,000 registered voters, and forms are still coming in at the rate of 8,000 per day as Monday’s registration deadline approaches.

Although voter-registration numbers in some Ohio counties have reached 90 percent or more of population estimates, surpassing the number is highly unusual.

One county official in Ohio called the Franklin County figures "bizarre."

One state official called them troubling.






Columbus Dispatch






Or this describing trading votes for crack cocaine:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbc...EWS09/410190343

or this

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...4/21voting.html

or this

http://www.10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2458796

or this

http://www.cincinnati.com/text/loca...oc_fraud20.html

or this

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/s.../062903725.html


The list goes on and on. Note that all those cites listed are legitimate news sources, not crack wacko political hack websites, and that they discuss verified acts, many of them criminal, where suspects are named and charged with specific criminal offenses involving widespread voter fraud.

I have chosen not to include blogs as a source, as I feel that many of them are unreliable sources of information. I did find this one interesting

http://wrenncom.com/CommentaryArchi...05m03d05-01.asp

Not that Democratic voter fraud is anything new. It is widely believed and supported that it was responsible for the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960.

In all seriousness, however, voter fraud seems to have occurred on both sides by unscrupulous supporters of both parties. Perhaps, just perhaps, it isn't an indication of vast right and left wing conspiracies, but the work of a minority of criminals on both sides who will do anything to get their side elected.
 

Makalakumu

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In both arguments, arming Iraq and voter fraud, the evidence was strong enough to present before congress and in both cases, the White House killed the measure. It most certainly is NOT innuendo and kook theories or it never would have made it that far. In fact, an election challenge occured only once before in the history of our country. This is nothing to blow off...

There is plenty of hard evidence in the form of legal cases, criminal investigations, and independent reports if you look.

The bottom line is that this amoung of voter irregularity may or may not be unique, but either way it is appalling. What this means is that when the electorate is split so evenly, as it is now, the skullduggery is what decides the election.

Nobody wants to see cheaters win, but unfortunately, playing nasty is probably just part of the ballgame.
 

Cryozombie

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Voter Fraud isnt a "Side" thing.

It exists in all parties, becuase we are dealing with people, people want to win, and there will be plenty of cheating to win... Steroids in baseball, lies in politics, etc etc. Someone is always gonna be willing to cheat to win.
 

sgtmac_46

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upnorthkyosa said:
In both arguments, arming Iraq and voter fraud, the evidence was strong enough to present before congress and in both cases, the White House killed the measure. It most certainly is NOT innuendo and kook theories or it never would have made it that far. In fact, an election challenge occured only once before in the history of our country. This is nothing to blow off...

There is plenty of hard evidence in the form of legal cases, criminal investigations, and independent reports if you look.

The bottom line is that this amoung of voter irregularity may or may not be unique, but either way it is appalling. What this means is that when the electorate is split so evenly, as it is now, the skullduggery is what decides the election.

Nobody wants to see cheaters win, but unfortunately, playing nasty is probably just part of the ballgame.
Well, here's the problem North. Voter fraud is a crime, which means that IF evidence existed that it occurred, there's no need to bring it congress. Simply file charges against people responsible and send them to prison. It's that simple. Especially considering many of the prosecutors in jurisdictions where people were allegedly "disenfranchised" are Democrats themselves, and really don't have any reason to NOT prosecute other than a lack of a case.

It doesn't take any evidence to get something before congress, it takes political opportunism and a couple of congressman willing to try and cash in on political opportunities.

The only purpose for having a congressional hearing, is to create a circus and cash in on political hay by bringing a large amount of anecdotal evidence and vague, unsubstantiated allegations and innuendo so it gets played over and over again on the nightly news until everyone believes that it occurred, whether it did or not. They'd parade a bunch of conspiracy theorists, wackos and all around loons, in front of the nation. They will testify about their "knowledge" that this was occurring, which consists of bizarre unsubstantiated theories. Just what we need.

Now, why didn't anyone bring charges on this so called vast conspiracy to defraud the American voter? Because there isn't any evidence it existed outside the minds of a few internet nuts who are upset their guy didn't win. Several charges were brought against individuals, however, many of them Democrats who were engaging in clearly illegal activity. I won't even suggest this was a wide-spread phenomenon in the sense that it was planned in a centralized way.

I will suggest that it was fueled by the "Anyone but Bush, win at all costs" mentality of the left during the election, which led many on the left to believe that they needed to win at all costs, even if that meant voter fraud before the election, or accusations of voter fraud AFTER the election.
 

Makalakumu

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Has it occured to you that you are being entirely too dismissive of all of this? There is an ongoing investigation by the way. I'm going to sit back and see what happens...then we'll see who is right.
 

sgtmac_46

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upnorthkyosa said:
Has it occured to you that you are being entirely too dismissive of all of this? There is an ongoing investigation by the way. I'm going to sit back and see what happens...then we'll see who is right.
It occurred to me....until I looked at the evidence you gave me. Then it occurred to me that I was right the first time.

By the way, who's conducting the investigation this time? George Soros, Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy or a few nutcases from truthout.com? The problem is a lack of understanding of cause and effect and what evidence actually proves.

truthout.com actually thinks that the fact that Diebold's electronic polling stations have screen freezes and computer problems mean that the Republicans rigged the election. That must be the cause, because they spend an inordinate amount of time and webspace trying to prove Diebold's machines are defective. So much time and webspace, I guess they didn't have time or room to "prove" that Bush stole the election.

They can't tell the difference between a defective machine and vast right wing conspiracy. I think it's a problem with their understanding of logical reasoning. 1 + 1 does not equal 4,345. Keep thinking Occam's razor, North. Especially as a defective printer can't tell the difference between a vote for Bush and a vote for Kerry.
 

Makalakumu

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sgtmac_46 said:
1 + 1 does not equal 4,345.
That is just it. The numbers just don't add up. You can choose to blow it all off, but until you put the time into actually researching the raw data and crunching the numbers yourself, you really won't see it. Until you read the court cases, the congressional report, and the testimonials, you just won't see how important it really is.

Here is just one example...

The odds of just the Diebold voting machine errors in one state ALL coming out in favor of Bush are 93,000,000 to 1 for instance. That is just one state. Nationwide, across the country, every state had errors and they ALL favored Bush.

It is statistically impossible for that to be random chance and it deserved to be investigated. This is one of the things that was challenged about the election before Congress. There are 83 more equally impossible things in that report.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that something is rotten in Denmark.

You are too dismissive of the left. Truthout and Commondreams are leftwing biased, but they aren't kooky conspiracy theorists. Most of it is well researched. They've taken the numbers and they've shown the results. You just have to take the time to read it and understand the implications. There is a string of cases that stretches from the US supreme court to various state supreme courts, to the United States justice department and everyone is citing the same data. The bottom line is that if this is just a bunch of nutbar A.B.B people trying to stick it to Republicans, then thousands of people have purjured themselves.

It really doesn't matter that Bush won. It matters how he won. And a democrat could do the same thing next time. That door is now open and all of these "impossible" things are "fair game". If, in the end, nothing is done about any of this, we are really looking at some dirty future elections and possibly a compromised electoral system.
 
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