Dissapointed in Wing Chun

[DeLamar.J]

I have went around to a few wing chun schools, and was not very happy about what I found. First off I am a decent boxer, I have trained in go ju off and on since I was 10 and just recently made black belt, I can hold my own in amature boxing matches- Just to give you some back round about me and what my level of skill is. So I go into a wing chun school to spar, expecting to have my force used against me and end up getting popped in the face 10 times before I knew what hit me. That wasnt the case. I was whoppin most everyone, and the guys who were decent fighters werent really that special, they could have probly beat me but not without alot of bumps and cuts from me first. I was just expecting much more, mayby I keep running into mc dojos or something. I have read so many articles about yip man and how no one ever seen him not completely controlling his opponent, even playing with them and putting them is akward positions for comedy. Bruce lee and his training partners would say they respected yip so much because he would never hurt any of his students, and they all new they did not have the skill to hurt him. I have seen videos of bruce lee doing wing chun and it looked very impressive, jakie chan working the wing chun wooded dummie in rumble in the bronx was great! I dont doubt the system at all, I have read so much about it and it seems like it could possibly be the best fighting system ever IMO if the techniques were properly mastered. Are there no masters left in the world? I was expecting to get my butt handed to me but I get more compitition from kickboxers and grapplers. Where are all the great kung fu masters, I know there out there.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I have went around to a few wing chun schools, and was not very happy about what I found. First off I am a decent boxer, I have trained in go ju off and on since I was 10 and just recently made black belt, I can hold my own in amature boxing matches- Just to give you some back round about me and what my level of skill is. So I go into a wing chun school to spar, expecting to have my force used against me and end up getting popped in the face 10 times before I knew what hit me. That wasnt the case. I was whoppin most everyone, and the guys who were decent fighters werent really that special, they could have probly beat me but not without alot of bumps and cuts from me first. I was just expecting much more, mayby I keep running into mc dojos or something. I have read so many articles about yip man and how no one ever seen him not completely controlling his opponent, even playing with them and putting them is akward positions for comedy. Bruce lee and his training partners would say they respected yip so much because he would never hurt any of his students, and they all new they did not have the skill to hurt him. I have seen videos of bruce lee doing wing chun and it looked very impressive, jakie chan working the wing chun wooded dummie in rumble in the bronx was great! I dont doubt the system at all, I have read so much about it and it seems like it could possibly be the best fighting system ever IMO if the techniques were properly mastered. Are there no masters left in the world? I was expecting to get my butt handed to me but I get more compitition from kickboxers and grapplers. Where are all the great kung fu masters, I know there out there.

DeLamar.J,

What i'm about to say is not going to be popular here ,but i'm a realist ,so i keep things real.

Sadly you're going to be disappointed at 95% of the CMA schools out there ,not just Wing Chun. The simple fact is too many people train for different reasons ,and even fewer CMA schools really spar. Yes most spar ,but it's a controlled kickboxing type of sparring.

The closest most people come to actual fighting at these schools is two man drill sets ,this is not fighting nor should it be thought of as preparing you for fighting. The only way to prepare for fighting is to "FIGHT".

Most people spend time doing drills and forms at CMA schools these days ,then when they do spar they rarely if ever try to apply any of the techniques they spent time drilling.

So what happens is they result to doing what comes naturally which is the kickboxing type of fighting. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with kickboxers or kicboxing ,but there is something wrong when a CMA stylist does it.

Because a CMA stylist is not a trained kickboxer ,they're just trying to put punches and kicks together ,so it looks like bad kickboxing.

Then add to the fact that most have never been really hit like how a boxer hits ,and you can see where i'm coming from. Like an old quote "Everyone Has A Plan Until They Get Hit"

Once a person gets hit by a decent boxer they forget alot of the drills they learned ,and they're just trying to survive. I know because i've been there before in my training. I knew drills and forms out the wazoo ,but once i was hit by a pro boxer ,that trained with us ,i knew something was wrong.

That is why noone can knock Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ or any grappling art ,because these people apply their stuff everyday in training. Most CMA ppl have applied maybe 20% of what they've learned ,if they're lucky. Too many fall into that my stuff is too deadly to practice.

I study Black Tiger as my name says ,we not only spar ,but we spar without gloves,headgear,pads etc...

While sparring we don't limit any technique ,i mean you don't want to strike anyone with anything you know can be fatal ,but we strike the groin,throat,and other areas. Like my sifu says "you have to be able to withstand the pain" The only way you can know if you can withstand the pain is to be hit.

Most schools can't operate the way we do because they would have no students. My sifu teaches because he wants to ,not because he has too ,so he's not limited by having to earn a living. Most people in CMA schools can't apply half the techniques they learn because they simply don't take the time to understand the techniques.

As soon as they learn one technique instead of learning it inside out and making the technique a part of them ,they try to move on to the next technique or form. So they never truly understand the application of the technique or the technique itself. You can't use a technique naturally that you never practiced to make it second nature.

But it should start to change for some CMA schools ,because BJJ,MMA,and NHB is the best thing to happen to CMA since wars stop being fought with hand to hand combat. It was then that 95% of CMA styles became stagnant ,and failed to evolve with the times.

jeff

 

[DeLamar.J]

Interesting post tiger. Im sad to hear that. I know that Wing Chun has the potentail to blow up crazy and go mainstream, even to the UFC. They just need a good representative. I have read soooo much about the style and I am so interested in learning it. I just want to learn from a direct student of Yip Man. When Yip passed away, I think that was possibly the worst thing that ever happened in the MA community. He was like the last real Kung Fu master. It makes me so sad to see such a great system get disrespected all the time when it faces other practicle arts like plain old boxing. What about this school http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/ it seems like a legit one, I just cant travel over seas to train, I wish to god I could though.

 

[Phil Elmore]

There's plenty of poor Wing Chun out there. However, if you find a good school, you'll do well with it. My instructor also has extensive experience in boxing and White Crane, as well as Kali (which I also study at the same school).

 

[DeLamar.J]

And to add another thing, I absolutely hate these Wing Chun guys who try to re invent the style as there own, or change the name for various reasons, every time that happens it takes away from the way Yip Man taught the art. It screws up MA systems IMO when people do that. Like some karate schools I been to took out certain forms or basic moves and replaced it with this or that for there own personal reason, its like, what the hell are you doing! you teach a student this way, he teaches another,and so on, before you know it your practicing something that is completely different from what the master of the art intended. Back in the day, your MA skill decided if you lived or died. The masters knew what they were talking about. Thats why I belive so strongly in traditional training. These days everyone wants to be freakin Bruce Lee and invent there own style and make a name for them selves that its screwing up MA's. It kind of puts a chip on my shoulder sometimes when I visit another school and I get this impression. I hate that.

 

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I guess i was lucky, we all out spar occasionally after you get the forms down. My sifu has expierence in Bak mei, wrestling, JJ, and san shou.

 

[7starmantis]

Its true that many CMA schools dont fight enough, and its true that most MA schools dont fight enough as well. I dont mind saying there are CMA schools that aren't very good, but that doesn't reflect on the true system. Wing Chun is a good system, its just not taken seriously sometimes as is alot of other types of MA. I know the feeling your talking about expecting alot more and not seeing it. But it takes a long time in many CMA to really become effective at using the principles. Once someone has really learned them and actually used them, they can then give you what you expected.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

DeLamar.J,

Don't get me wrong ,there are some very good sifu and schools out there. You just have to be careful not to get sucked in by the bad ones.

As far as the different names like Wing Chun,Ving Tsun,Wing Tsun etc.... That happens for a few different reasons.

1. It shows the different lineages of Wing Chun ,so because it's spelled different ,it doesn't mean it's someones new creation.

2. Also alot of times it's just the different dialects and way things are translated that give different spelling. Alot of Chinese words don't translate into english ,also there are many ways to spell the same thing.

3.Yip Man ,although a great master ,was not the last great master. In his later yrs even while teaching Bruce Lee. Yip Man had a very bad opium habit ,so he did not teach everyone the same exact techniques. So some learned more and different techniques than others ,that's another reason for the different lineages under Yip Man.

Because someone learned directly from Yip Man or any Grandmaster for that matter ,doesn't mean they will be a great or even a good teacher. Someone can train with a master and never pick up the full transmission of the style,techniques or the therioes of the style.

Don't assume because someone has the title of sifu or master ,that they automatically know what they're doing. There are many a Chinese sifu here that are just as fake as anyone else. Bruce Lee ,while one of the best things to happen in bringing CMA to america was also one of tyhe worst things that could happen.

Because many chinese people that came to america after him were thrust into teaching simply because they were chinese. People assumed that everyone from china knew kung fu ,while some were masters ,others were either people that had learned some or ppl that just made up stuff.

There are very good sifu out there ,so don't be disappointed ,you just have to search them out. When i found my sifu he was no longer teaching. I chased him and hassled him for 1yr before he agreed to teach me Black Tiger. I was determined that he was going to teach me and i wasn't going to accept no for an answer.

I recently started learning Hung Fut (Buddha Palm) kung fu also ,under a master that also was not teaching anymore. So these masters are out there you just have to find them.

Good Luck!

But Don't give up ,if a sifu can't explain how,when,where,and why you use a technique ,then you need to move on. Don't be affraid to ask questions ,if they won't or can't answer your questions ,then it's not a school where you want to be.

A good sifu can show you everything better than they can tell you.

jeff

 

[Tony]

In my style of Kung Fu and we enter tournaments as well so there are some Kung Fu schools who do do this. But I know Wing Chun really doesn't put much emphasis on this, but even so I believe it is a good system.
You must remember that you're only as good as the training you receive and whether it is practical to use. We cannot judge the effectiveness of a style based on merely a few individuals.

 

[GZepeda]

I cannot really say anything about the schools in the Midwest, as I have never been to one to observe.
The problem that has been brought up is usurpation of the style's name without proper training. It seems like WC has become the new word to draw students and money with.
It's my bet that you indeed found a mcdojo, and it's also my bet that there are some great WC stylists in Ohio.
I have only been to one WC school, here in Tucson. It is legit, and I can't imagine anyone trying to outbox Sifu Fong.
There was someone on budoseek that was looking for a WC school, found Fong's and started last Tuesday, I think. I still have not heard back from him as to how he found the training.

 

[brothershaw]

Black Tiger pretty much hit it on the head. The key and hard part is to find a school that is realistic in training. REalism doesnt mean you cant be traditional and pass on some of the culture that comes along with a chinese or whatever art. REalistic means not training in a bubble that your style is the greatest or that you will only be atttacked by someone who attacks just the way you practice things. Realistic is having a teacher who will tell you that trying X against a boxer is going to get you knocked out, or trying that against a grappler is you will still get taken to the ground. That means finding a treacher with a good base of knowledge who is also willing to pass it along.
Realistic also means knowing that for things to work they will not look exactly like how you do them in the forms, and drills those are just templates.

 

[SilentLucidity]

Hi

I am new here and a beginner in wing chun. I wonder if in the olden days teachers like Yip Man encouraged their students to spar. I suppose my question is whether sparring with gloves/equipment constitutes tradional wing chun training?

rgrds
SL

 

[brothershaw]

I dont know( honestly) if they even had sparring gear in the old, old days. I remember reading that protective sparring gear developed out of TKD. I can say from painful experience getting kicked hard by someone who knows how to kick still hurts even with full protective gear.
Sparring with some kind of discipline is defintely a good thing even though sometimes painful and leading to injury.

 

[SilentLucidity]

Hi

At our wing chun schol the sifu encourages both sides. He encourages traditional training as in developing senstivity and one on one technique work + sparring in the ring. I suppose he has not really done any on the ground grappling work as far as I know but he does make us practice continuous punching to throat and head while being taken down.

I do'nt think I would ever be disappointed in wing chun. Our sifu is an experienecd fighter inside and outside the ring and always tries to show the practical application of wing chun, from there on I suppose it is up to the individual. I have also seen some material by Emin Bopetz to prove how effective wing chun can be.

On the flip side I have been on the receiving end too where my then sifu had no real idea about a real fight and missed some crucial stuff in our training, purely concertrating on traditional senstivity training. I trained for about a year there on and off until I just got bored and disenchanted with wing chun and it's effectiveness but that changes when I saw some real wing cgun application years later.

rgrds

 

[spatulahunter]

I cannot really say anything about the schools in the Midwest, as I have never been to one to observe.
The problem that has been brought up is usurpation of the style's name without proper training. It seems like WC has become the new word to draw students and money with.
It's my bet that you indeed found a mcdojo, and it's also my bet that there are some great WC stylists in Ohio.
I have only been to one WC school, here in Tucson. It is legit, and I can't imagine anyone trying to outbox Sifu Fong.
There was someone on budoseek that was looking for a WC school, found Fong's and started last Tuesday, I think. I still have not heard back from him as to how he found the training.

My teacher (who is a master under ip ching) use to train under fong and i have heard that he was one heck of a teacher, all the older guys said that he is really good and a nice guy.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Thats why I belive so strongly in traditional training. These days everyone wants to be freakin Bruce Lee and invent there own style and make a name for them selves that its screwing up MA's. It kind of puts a chip on my shoulder sometimes when I visit another school and I get this impression. I hate that.[/QUOTE]

Well, sorry my friend but thats the way its going, who wants to learn a style that can be seen as ineffective in a time where violence is growing? Most people also do not have time to learn traditional Martial Arts properly they just want to learn how to fight, and I've got to agree with them. Why teach people all the crap in an art and waste their time even if it is traditional or why just not mix some tradtional Wing Chung and fill in the gaps that people can notice. I'm not talking about people trying to make a name for themselves I'm on about how people see the art as being useful in self defence or as a sport. There on, maybe thats why patterns and kata are being strutinised so much?! However if the instructors are trying to make a living then they need to keep the majority of people interested in what they are doing so they keep recieving their income. Or some people alternatively carry a gun. In america anyway.

Regards

 

[brothershaw]

You could visit any school on any given day, and maybe because there was a really rough training session the day before, or maybe its only level practitioners, or at the time you are watching the teacher has them doing some really basic stuff for some reason, you could walk out and say those guys or that style is lame. Some people at some schools dont really show thier skills when people are visiting, because they dont care about impressing people. That said.

Yes some people have minimal skills and will never improve. Yes training to be truly proficient in many of the sytems out there averages about 10 years minimum. Yes its nice to be proficient in sparring but sparring is not fighting.
Being a great sparrer or sport fighter is one thing and its good. But being a great fighter with whatever system you study means finishing somebody off quickly and immediately and thats something different.I am not talking about any of that my technique is too deadly b.s. . I am saying using your system to finish somebody off quickly whether you study some stlye of karate, jujitsu or kung fu is not boxing, kickboxing or pointsparring, its maximum damage in minimal time. Proficiency in one doesnt guarantee proficiency in the other. Alot of people arent proficient in either but think they are or confuse the 2 creating alot of the hodgepodge thats out there.
I dont claim to be proficient in either but i know there are some great teachers left out there, and it will take me a long time to get where I would like to be.

 

[Michael Maison]

You are among the most intelligent, most sensible, and most knowledgable people I have ever seen or heard writing on the subject. Thank you for your terrific insights, and I hope to hear more from you.

Thanks again,

MM

DeLamar.J,

Don't get me wrong ,there are some very good sifu and schools out there. You just have to be careful not to get sucked in by the bad ones.

As far as the different names like Wing Chun,Ving Tsun,Wing Tsun etc.... That happens for a few different reasons.

1. It shows the different lineages of Wing Chun ,so because it's spelled different ,it doesn't mean it's someones new creation.

2. Also alot of times it's just the different dialects and way things are translated that give different spelling. Alot of Chinese words don't translate into english ,also there are many ways to spell the same thing.

3.Yip Man ,although a great master ,was not the last great master. In his later yrs even while teaching Bruce Lee. Yip Man had a very bad opium habit ,so he did not teach everyone the same exact techniques. So some learned more and different techniques than others ,that's another reason for the different lineages under Yip Man.

Because someone learned directly from Yip Man or any Grandmaster for that matter ,doesn't mean they will be a great or even a good teacher. Someone can train with a master and never pick up the full transmission of the style,techniques or the therioes of the style.

Don't assume because someone has the title of sifu or master ,that they automatically know what they're doing. There are many a Chinese sifu here that are just as fake as anyone else. Bruce Lee ,while one of the best things to happen in bringing CMA to america was also one of tyhe worst things that could happen.

Because many chinese people that came to america after him were thrust into teaching simply because they were chinese. People assumed that everyone from china knew kung fu ,while some were masters ,others were either people that had learned some or ppl that just made up stuff.

There are very good sifu out there ,so don't be disappointed ,you just have to search them out. When i found my sifu he was no longer teaching. I chased him and hassled him for 1yr before he agreed to teach me Black Tiger. I was determined that he was going to teach me and i wasn't going to accept no for an answer.

I recently started learning Hung Fut (Buddha Palm) kung fu also ,under a master that also was not teaching anymore. So these masters are out there you just have to find them.

Good Luck!

But Don't give up ,if a sifu can't explain how,when,where,and why you use a technique ,then you need to move on. Don't be affraid to ask questions ,if they won't or can't answer your questions ,then it's not a school where you want to be.

A good sifu can show you everything better than they can tell you.

jeff

 

[Corporal Hicks]

You are among the most intelligent, most sensible, and most knowledgable people I have ever seen or heard writing on the subject. Thank you for your terrific insights, and I hope to hear more from you.

Thanks again,

MM


Well, if somebody can tell that from one post then I'll be damned!


Still, I like your post Black Tiger Fist, its explains a couple of things I was pondering.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

You are among the most intelligent, most sensible, and most knowledgable people I have ever seen or heard writing on the subject. Thank you for your terrific insights, and I hope to hear more from you.

Thanks again,

MM


Well, if somebody can tell that from one post then I'll be damned!


Still, I like your post Black Tiger Fist, its explains a couple of things I was pondering.

Thank You both for your kind words:ultracool

jeff